Raiders sign WR Willie Snead

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

But that’s what I mean. Are you saying you don’t expect them to improve based on the premise that they showed little improvement last year? For me that statement doesn’t make sense for a player like Arnette because he didn’t play long enough to improve. 
 

And again when talking about how bad the secondary is, we can ignore the lack of pass rush. Our sack leader had 7 sacks; a linebacker that had three sacks was second. So as one improves we should see another improve naturally. It’s not this way out there idea.

🎰💰 We have a winner! 

🎖🏅🥇 You get every gold medal, 🏆this slick participation trophy, 🏉 this sweet old school pigskin, and a cuddly teddy bear because I'm feeling extra nice 🧸. 

YES! YES! YES! That is EXACTLY what I am saying! Players who don't show improvement, rather they actually regress in their baseline fundamentals, don't just magically improve out of thin air because a bunch of people "expect" them to. That's totally counterintuitive. 

I suppose your counter is that despite their lack of improvement, despite having no notable competition brought in, despite their regression into a boderline unplayable lot as individuals and a unit, and despite no clear upgrades being made at other positions in the secondary, that they're just gonna up and be a lot better next year because of nothing you can actually point to and say "here is why I think they'll improve" other than trying to repeat it into existence.

Zero, zilch, nada indication that they'll improve, we're just saying so and that's that, is it? We're going to buck every trend of player regression and every piece of empirical evidence we currently have showing no indication that improvement is on the horizon, rather the opposite- that guys regressed- because....they didn't show improvement last year so now they will? I don't think anything more needs to be said.

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, reddevil said:

I suppose what I’m saying is that we can argue all we want about whether the roster has enough quality or if the coaches can improve individuals or if we made the right draft pick, but what we need more than anything is to find that positive team mentality.

This is one of the biggest worries we should all have. 

We had very few decisive wins last year. Whether it was kicking ill-advised FGs, letting teams claw their way back, or falling flat out of the gate, the snowball effect killed us and we played up to or down to our competition on a weekly basis. 

The first half of the Saints game, I was back in NOLA visiting some friends, and they swore we were arguably the sneakiest best overall team in the league (though Saints fans hate losing and will say that about anyone in the process of beating them down). But we did look like one of the best teams in the league that night. 

But that wasn't indicative of our year at all. 

Shootouts or getting stomped on by bad teams was a norm, and we had no consistency from one week to the next. 

Ironically, it's why I laugh when people complain about Carr not taking chances. I mean, yeah, I too wish he would. But 1 INT trying to force the issue for what often amounts to little more than fantasy points is often a back breaker for us. We don't have a mentally tough squad, and as soon as anything goes wrong, it goes ridiculously wrong. 

We can't seem to carry a winning bit of momentum from one week to the next. Our win streaks felt more like a "ok, can we do it one more time?" exercise. But boy can we carry bad mojo from week to week.

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

🎰💰 We have a winner! 

🎖🏅🥇 You get every gold medal, 🏆this slick participation trophy, 🏉 this sweet old school pigskin, and a cuddly teddy bear because I'm feeling extra nice 🧸. 

YES! YES! YES! That is EXACTLY what I am saying! Players who don't show improvement, rather they actually regress in their baseline fundamentals, don't just magically improve out of thin air because a bunch of people "expect" them to. That's totally counterintuitive. 

I suppose your counter is that despite their lack of improvement, despite having no notable competition brought in, despite their regression into a boderline unplayable lot as individuals and a unit, and despite no clear upgrades being made at other positions in the secondary, that they're just gonna up and be a lot better next year because of nothing you can actually point to and say "here is why I think they'll improve" other than trying to repeat it into existence.

Zero, zilch, nada indication that they'll improve, we're just saying so and that's that, is it? We're going to buck every trend of player regression and every piece of empirical evidence we currently have showing no indication that improvement is on the horizon, rather the opposite- that guys regressed- because....they didn't show improvement last year so now they will? I don't think anything more needs to be said.

I’m not even gonna argue with that. I’m just gonna keep it as a receipt for next year when they obviously improve. Lol

[Humble_Beast]

8 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Probably the still lousy defense and 3 new full time starters on the OL, while hoping Ritchie holds up 🤷🏼‍♂️

I don't agree at all. Defense will be better and we still have the draft. people complain to complain

[NickButera]

9 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Why? Didn't we say the same thing about Collins and Ross and Hurst and Hall and Ellis and Rubin and Wright and McDonald and Vanderdoes and Hester...and that's only at DT...over the last 4 years or so? 

Seems to me, at this rate, the odds are better that none of them pan out to be worthwhile than any one of them panning out to go alongside Hankins....

The difference is these guys haven't been solely raw talent their career, or rookies, with no resume. The DT's we signed have all accomplished high level play for fairly long periods of time. One of them is bound to have a comeback year where they return to form. Most of the guys you mentioned were rookies, it's a whole different notion to compare a guy like Irvin who was at one time one of the best, or Jefferson, who was a key player one of the of best defenses in the league, etc. 

[NYRaider]

8 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

But that’s what I mean. Are you saying you don’t expect them to improve based on the premise that they showed little improvement last year? For me that statement doesn’t make sense for a player like Arnette because he didn’t play long enough to improve. 

And again when talking about how bad the secondary is, we can ignore the lack of pass rush. Our sack leader had 7 sacks; a linebacker that had three sacks was second. So as one improves we should see another improve naturally. It’s not this way out there idea.

I do think our young players will improve. Again, Kolton Miller had arguably the worst season for a starting LT in NFL history as a rookie and has developed into one of the better starting LT in the NFL. 

I know that everyone loves to hate on Arnette and I agree that he didn't play well. But corner is also one of the toughest positions for a rookie to come in and play well at. Jeff Okudah was viewed as a can't miss prospect at CB and his coverage grade last season was worse than Arnette's. Isaiah Simmons was viewed as a once in a generation type of talent and had a terrible rookie season. Derrick Brown was viewed as the best DT prospect in the class and he only had 2 sacks as a rookie. 

Our 2019 rookie class was the most productive in NFL history despite Ferrell not playing that well and Abram missing the entire season. Our 2020 class didn't play great but Ruggs, Edwards, and Arnette were dealing with injuries throughout the season after having very little offseason time or practice to learn the scheme before the season started. 

Yannick will make a big impact in improving our pass rush this season, imo. He has been one of the best edge rushers in the league since he entered the league. Rod Marinelli is supposed to be one of the best defensive line coaches in the league But really didn't get any time to work with our guys due to a lack of OTA, etc. So I'm excited to see how guys like Ferrell, Crosby, Irving, and Thomas look this season after more time to work with him. 

[Jeremy408]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I do think our young players will improve. Again, Kolton Miller had arguably the worst season for a starting LT in NFL history as a rookie and has developed into one of the better starting LT in the NFL. 

I know that everyone loves to hate on Arnette and I agree that he didn't play well. But corner is also one of the toughest positions for a rookie to come in and play well at. Jeff Okudah was viewed as a can't miss prospect at CB and his coverage grade last season was worse than Arnette's. Isaiah Simmons was viewed as a once in a generation type of talent and had a terrible rookie season. Derrick Brown was viewed as the best DT prospect in the class and he only had 2 sacks as a rookie. 

Our 2019 rookie class was the most productive in NFL history despite Ferrell not playing that well and Abram missing the entire season. Our 2020 class didn't play great but Ruggs, Edwards, and Arnette were dealing with injuries throughout the season after having very little offseason time or practice to learn the scheme before the season started. 

Yannick will make a big impact in improving our pass rush this season, imo. He has been one of the best edge rushers in the league since he entered the league. Rod Marinelli is supposed to be one of the best defensive line coaches in the league But really didn't get any time to work with our guys due to a lack of OTA, etc. So I'm excited to see how guys like Ferrell, Crosby, Irving, and Thomas look this season after more time to work with him. 

Once It was put in writing the idea that two corners that are high draft picks(One of them only playing seven games) Would not improve with a better pass rush better coaching and just being in the NFL for a longer then two years or seven games, I realize that there was no point in arguing lol. 

As far as what you said about Jeffrey Okudah and Derek Brown. You’re 100% on point. As a matter fact I’ve mentioned that on here a handful of times and I’ve noticed that whenever I mention that the person whoever I’m talking to doesn’t respond. None of the corners really did well last year(Especially all of the ones that were picked in the first round). 

Oh yeah of course everybody forgets 2019 draft class. That’s what happens when your team misses the playoffs every year you stop paying attention to detail(or are you just stop caring).

i’m just wondering if some of the rookies last year can get an off-season before we start calling them busts and want to move on from them.

 

[Frankie2Gunz]

11 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Morrow is one of the best coverage LB in the NFL by coverage snap metrics. Kwit is a good player on a bad defense. He is good by nearly every metric you can find. Littleton was also one of the best coverage linebackers in the NFL for several years before coming to the Raiders. He was misused and even played at SAM at times. You can't say he doesn't have talent. Point being these aren't bums out there. They can all play.

We still have a hole at safety, but Heath was good last year at free safety. Someone tell me heath didn't perform when he played free safety. I'll wait.

What #1 cornerback is on the market? Show me how well paying 10+ to free agent cornerbacks has worked out. What impact wide receiver did you want to sign? I think allocating less $ to receiver was smart.

Why would we pay for another linebacker? It's not what's wrong with this team. Inexperience in the secondary and lack of pass rush are. The secondary players will be a year more experienced and have one of the best secondary coaches in the NFL now in Ron Milus. Plus we added one of the best pure pass rushers in the NFL in Ngakoue (at least top 15). 

I really don't see doom and gloom with this team. I"ll check back in a week and we'll see how some of these posts age.

I like Kwit but he is not one of the better MLB's in the NFL.  He is the best MLB we have had in quite some time but he is honestly a middle of the road LB based on physical skills. 

Littleton played well on a Rams D littered with talent, he came here with little talent around him, zero pass rush and has not preformed well.  You can spin it anyway you like but he was brought in to be an impact LB and was far from it.  You can come up with all of the excuses you want but the fact remains that he was brought in as a difference maker and played at an average level.  I agree he has talent but I can provide you a list of players with "talent" who have signed here and been bums.  The list goes back 20 years and the excuses are always the same.  

If you're content with Jeff Heath at FS, that's good.  I am not.  He is an average FS who is best suited as a backup/ depth piece.  Here we go again pumping up backups and convincing ourselves they belong as starters  because no legit players want to sign here.  It's pathetic at this point.

There may not be elite #1 CB's to hit the market this year but there were certainly upgrades available. Fuller, A. Jackson to name a few.  We couldn't land any of them and still are now going into the season with Mullin who has shown nothing to be nothing more than a #2 and Arnette who was flat out torched last season.  As you point out I would not call Arnette a bum, I agree with you that he has a place on this roster but when you're taking a CB in the top 20 you expect more out of him that what we saw not only last year but over his entire career at OSU.  That pick was a reach by most metrics and his play last season was a clear indication that he was not as "NFL ready" as Gruden and Mayock said he was.  If you're comfortable heading into the season with them as our number 2 then you're clearly more optimistic than I am.  

I'm not advocating that we pay big money for a LB but we need some proven competition and depth there.  If one of our starters goes down we have terrible talent behind average starters.  LB is still one of many weak spots on this D that still has little depth.  

What is wrong with this team is lack of quality talent that will sign here and lack of depth across most positions.  We had 40 million to spend this offseason and walked away with potentially 1 impact player in YN but on the flip side he is a player who has been on 4 teams in two years.  None of those teams wanted to lock him up for whatever reason so we got him on a discount.  Time will tell if he is as impactful as we all hope he can be. 

I want to win Super Bowls and this team stands zero chance of doing so this season.   Zero...  Gruden was brought in to turn this franchise around and attract stop talent, he has done none of that.  We have players still talking about culture change and lack of accountability on our roster and that starts with our coach.  Gruden so far has shown to be exactly what I thought he would be and that is an overpaid, talking head TV stooge a decade removed from NFL coaching who continues to disappoint and can't attract legit talent. We had arguably our best player in Hudson, who from everything I can see is a loyal, stand up player, demand to get out of this organization.  If that doesn't speak volumes about who we are as a franchise then I dont know what to tell you.  

 

[drfrey13]

12 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Reed can play but I don't think we can afford him now. 

That was my point about signing all the other players first and just giving an extra million here and there.  Would you rather give Thomas and Jefferson $6 million or Reed $8 million?  You are right that we will probably not sign Reed now because we have $5 locked up in Jefferson and Thomas.  On top of that we have no clear starter.  I did not like the Brown signing but he is more likely to produce then not.  At DT it looks like we took Collins' money and spit it between to players that will most likely produce what he did.  Maybe they get lucky but they are not FO professionals getting paid millions to get lucky.

[NYRaider]

29 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I like Kwit but he is not one of the better MLB's in the NFL.  He is the best MLB we have had in quite some time but he is honestly a middle of the road LB based on physical skills. 

Kwit played very well for the Bears as a starter and was definitely very solid for us last season despite our bad DL. I don't like to use PFF as an end all, be all but he finished as the 18th best LB overall and the 7th best LB in coverage according to their metrics.  

29 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Littleton played well on a Rams D littered with talent, he came here with little talent around him, zero pass rush and has not preformed well.  You can spin it anyway you like but he was brought in to be an impact LB and was far from it.  You can come up with all of the excuses you want but the fact remains that he was brought in as a difference maker and played at an average level.  I agree he has talent but I can provide you a list of players with "talent" who have signed here and been bums.  The list goes back 20 years and the excuses are always the same.  

Littleton didn't play well or live up to his contract last season but I think that it's still way too early to give up on him. Our entire defense was a mess and Guenther misused him, just like he misused Joyner. In his final two seasons with the Rams he had 260 tackles, 15 TFL, 7.5 sacks, 22 PD, 2 FF, 5 INT and graded out as one of the best LB's in coverage in the league. With the Rams he played exclusively in a WLB role where he was able to roam around and make plays. Guenther used him in a SLB role where he was asked to take on blocks and be more of a run stopper.  

Ted Nguyen wrote a pretty in depth article about Littleton's performance last season and here's one of the things that he said, showing that as soon as Guenther was gone, he actually started to look like the player he was for the Rams:  

Quote

During the final two games of the season, Littleton looked night-and-day better. He looked a lot more comfortable. There was no timidness with where he should be and he was confidently communicating with his teammates before the snap. 

30 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

If you're content with Jeff Heath at FS, that's good.  I am not.  He is an average FS who is best suited as a backup/ depth piece.  Here we go again pumping up backups and convincing ourselves they belong as starters  because no legit players want to sign here.  It's pathetic at this point.

I agree that Jeff Heath should not be our starting FS and is a backup, rotational guy. The reason we didn't sign a high profile FS is because almost none of them hit the market. Marcus Maye, Justin Simmons, and Marcus Williams were all franchise tagged. JJ3 played more of a strong safety role with the Rams and hasn't ever really shown to be a FS that can play primarily in single high. Anthony Harris has one good year as a starter and he also has played primarily in a two high safety defense, Zimmer's scheme is what Guenther tried to copy, and had a bad year last season.  

31 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

There may not be elite #1 CB's to hit the market this year but there were certainly upgrades available. Fuller, A. Jackson to name a few.  We couldn't land any of them and still are now going into the season with Mullin who has shown nothing to be nothing more than a #2 and Arnette who was flat out torched last season. 

Fuller was dead set on signing with the Broncos as soon as he was released because of his relationship with Fangio. Adoree Jackson has missed 18 games the past two seasons and was literally cut by the Titans and got a 3 yr/$39M deal. 

Mullen has definitely flashed some ability and was one of our better players last season. Even then though it's almost impossible to be good at CB when you play on a defense with zero pass rush. 

Arnette didn't play well but he was injured throughout the year and CB is one of the toughest positions to make the transition from college to the NFL. Jeff Okudah was the #3 pick and viewed as a can't miss, generational CB prospect and his coverage grade was worse than Arnette's last season. 

Nnamdi Asomugha was a 1st round pick and hardly played for us as a rookie and then developed into an All-Pro corner. 

[reddevil]

48 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I like Kwit but he is not one of the better MLB's in the NFL.  He is the best MLB we have had in quite some time but he is honestly a middle of the road LB based on physical skills. 

Littleton played well on a Rams D littered with talent, he came here with little talent around him, zero pass rush and has not preformed well.  You can spin it anyway you like but he was brought in to be an impact LB and was far from it.  You can come up with all of the excuses you want but the fact remains that he was brought in as a difference maker and played at an average level.  I agree he has talent but I can provide you a list of players with "talent" who have signed here and been bums.  The list goes back 20 years and the excuses are always the same.  

If you're content with Jeff Heath at FS, that's good.  I am not.  He is an average FS who is best suited as a backup/ depth piece.  Here we go again pumping up backups and convincing ourselves they belong as starters  because no legit players want to sign here.  It's pathetic at this point.

There may not be elite #1 CB's to hit the market this year but there were certainly upgrades available. Fuller, A. Jackson to name a few.  We couldn't land any of them and still are now going into the season with Mullin who has shown nothing to be nothing more than a #2 and Arnette who was flat out torched last season.  As you point out I would not call Arnette a bum, I agree with you that he has a place on this roster but when you're taking a CB in the top 20 you expect more out of him that what we saw not only last year but over his entire career at OSU.  That pick was a reach by most metrics and his play last season was a clear indication that he was not as "NFL ready" as Gruden and Mayock said he was.  If you're comfortable heading into the season with them as our number 2 then you're clearly more optimistic than I am.  

I'm not advocating that we pay big money for a LB but we need some proven competition and depth there.  If one of our starters goes down we have terrible talent behind average starters.  LB is still one of many weak spots on this D that still has little depth.  

What is wrong with this team is lack of quality talent that will sign here and lack of depth across most positions.  We had 40 million to spend this offseason and walked away with potentially 1 impact player in YN but on the flip side he is a player who has been on 4 teams in two years.  None of those teams wanted to lock him up for whatever reason so we got him on a discount.  Time will tell if he is as impactful as we all hope he can be. 

I want to win Super Bowls and this team stands zero chance of doing so this season.   Zero...  Gruden was brought in to turn this franchise around and attract stop talent, he has done none of that.  We have players still talking about culture change and lack of accountability on our roster and that starts with our coach.  Gruden so far has shown to be exactly what I thought he would be and that is an overpaid, talking head TV stooge a decade removed from NFL coaching who continues to disappoint and can't attract legit talent. We had arguably our best player in Hudson, who from everything I can see is a loyal, stand up player, demand to get out of this organization.  If that doesn't speak volumes about who we are as a franchise then I dont know what to tell you.  

 

Last paragraph is hard to argue against. I do think there’s a chance we’re better, and better could mean play offs - but many things have to go well for that to be the case. Not least as has been mentioned, for our underperforming youngsters to significantly improve. Any optimism is really based on hope that a good amount of the youngsters make a massive leap this year or we luck into a 2014 type draft.

But if you are to look at it objectively and over the lifespan of Gruden’s tenure here, it is difficult to imagine him being the one to take us out of the mire and to build lasting success.

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

That was my point about signing all the other players first and just giving an extra million here and there.  Would you rather give Thomas and Jefferson $6 million or Reed $8 million?  You are right that we will probably not sign Reed now because we have $5 locked up in Jefferson and Thomas.  On top of that we have no clear starter.  I did not like the Brown signing but he is more likely to produce then not.  At DT it looks like we took Collins' money and spit it between to players that will most likely produce what he did.  Maybe they get lucky but they are not FO professionals getting paid millions to get lucky.

Jefferson by himself easily outproduced Collins last year. Reed is going to want a lot of $. He was getting 10 mil+ and wasn’t happy with it. 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Jefferson by himself easily outproduced Collins last year. Reed is going to want a lot of $. He was getting 10 mil+ and wasn’t happy with it. 

Jefferson also outproduced Rankins over the last two seasons.

[drfrey13]

2 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Jefferson by himself easily outproduced Collins last year. Reed is going to want a lot of $. He was getting 10 mil+ and wasn’t happy with it. 

I saw Reed wanted a longer term deal and it was not the annual salary.  Seattle cut him because they have cheaper options behind him kind of like what happened to Hudson.

Collins and Jefferson performed about the same before they got here.  Hopefully Jefferson works out but I am not excited about the signing.  I think you could sign Reed for around $8 million a year and and maybe less on a 1 year deal because he already collected $5 million for this year.

[MrOaktown_56]

52 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Kwit played very well for the Bears as a starter and was definitely very solid for us last season despite our bad DL. I don't like to use PFF as an end all, be all but he finished as the 18th best LB overall and the 7th best LB in coverage according to their metrics.  

Littleton didn't play well or live up to his contract last season but I think that it's still way too early to give up on him. Our entire defense was a mess and Guenther misused him, just like he misused Joyner. In his final two seasons with the Rams he had 260 tackles, 15 TFL, 7.5 sacks, 22 PD, 2 FF, 5 INT and graded out as one of the best LB's in coverage in the league. With the Rams he played exclusively in a WLB role where he was able to roam around and make plays. Guenther used him in a SLB role where he was asked to take on blocks and be more of a run stopper.  

Ted Nguyen wrote a pretty in depth article about Littleton's performance last season and here's one of the things that he said, showing that as soon as Guenther was gone, he actually started to look like the player he was for the Rams:  

I agree that Jeff Heath should not be our starting FS and is a backup, rotational guy. The reason we didn't sign a high profile FS is because almost none of them hit the market. Marcus Maye, Justin Simmons, and Marcus Williams were all franchise tagged. JJ3 played more of a strong safety role with the Rams and hasn't ever really shown to be a FS that can play primarily in single high. Anthony Harris has one good year as a starter and he also has played primarily in a two high safety defense, Zimmer's scheme is what Guenther tried to copy, and had a bad year last season.  

Fuller was dead set on signing with the Broncos as soon as he was released because of his relationship with Fangio. Adoree Jackson has missed 18 games the past two seasons and was literally cut by the Titans and got a 3 yr/$39M deal. 

Mullen has definitely flashed some ability and was one of our better players last season. Even then though it's almost impossible to be good at CB when you play on a defense with zero pass rush. 

Arnette didn't play well but he was injured throughout the year and CB is one of the toughest positions to make the transition from college to the NFL. Jeff Okudah was the #3 pick and viewed as a can't miss, generational CB prospect and his coverage grade was worse than Arnette's last season. 

Nnamdi Asomugha was a 1st round pick and hardly played for us as a rookie and then developed into an All-Pro corner. 

Exactly upgrade the pass rush because no one else can succeed without it.

That’s what we’ve been trying to do.

We haven’t overpaid B/C grade players because it isn’t good business.