2022 NFL Draft Thread

[jimkelly02]

4 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Ever heard of isiah Wynn a guy the pats drafted. 
 

if measurables were that important leatherdude should be a god ot….

No, I’ve never heard of him…. (Rolls eyes at unnecessarily sarcasm)

And Pitt/Jax/NY Jets had Kelvin Beachum who was 6’2.875” but only 33.125” Arms. 
 

That’s two examples…. Two.  If you draft Zion Johnson and your LT goes out …. Your playing the backup OT And keeping Johnson Where he is.  It’d take quite an emergency before Johnson ever got moved to LT… or even RT.  And even then in that remote circumstance your putting a TE on his side to help.

The point was Zion Johnson is a high level G who can even play C.   That’s why you draft him…. You don’t even play him At T, it’s a waste of his talent.

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

No, I’ve never heard of him…. (Rolls eyes at unnecessarily sarcasm)

And Pitt/Jax/NY Jets had Kelvin Beachum who was 6’2.875” but only 33.125” Arms. 
 

That’s two examples…. Two.  If you draft Zion Johnson and your LT goes out …. Your playing the backup OT And keeping Johnson Where he is.  It’d take quite an emergency before Johnson ever got moved to LT… or even RT.  And even then in that remote circumstance your putting a TE on his side to help.

The point was Zion Johnson is a high level G who can even play C.   That’s why you draft him…. You don’t even play him At T, it’s a waste of his talent.

Some may not know who Wynn is my bad. I agree lg is maybe his best position but given a situation we had like last year at rt I’d definitely start him over leatherwood or Parker. Zion’s versatility is a definite plus. Plus his smarts are off the charts. Even at senior bowl he stayed late getting extra reps a center without anyone telling him. He’s my #1 guy like creed was last year.

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

You think Good is a top 10 guard in the league?  I say that without any attitude and actually curious of your opinion.  I like the guy and all but that’s pretty high up there.  At this point he is who he is, I don’t expect major changes for the 30 year old In his 7th season. 

If anything I think Good stand a 1/3 chance to Get cut.  Good came here an often injured, career back-up who did have some Starting experience.  He had few good games for us starting in ‘19 and then had 1 rather good season in ‘20, but he did miss a couple games too.  But the guy missed all of last year with injury.  His Salary isn’t guaranteed and 4.18M goes close to half way to signing a highly rated G or RT in FA.  I’m just saying Good isn’t a lock to even make the team.  But I’m not advocating his release either.  I’d be very happy to go into the season with Leatherwood and Good as our G’s, especially now that we’re moving to a power blocking system.  If we do keep Good, I can’t say I wouldn’t be rather scared Good ends up getting hurt and missing a significant number of games.   This is really a situation that could go either way.  I will say we should only release Good if we can use that money to get a good deal on a very limited number of G’s (Tomlinson, Daniels, Norwell, Corbett) or RT (Moses).  

Top 10 LG with how he played in 2020.  Not top ten G overall.  Sorry for the ambiguity.  Did not realize he had missed so many games in his career.  Would definitely want to have some one capable behind him.  I think at $4 he is worth keeping just for his ability to start at 3 positions at an average (RT) to really good level (G).

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Some may not know who Wynn is my bad. I agree lg is maybe his best position but given a situation we had like last year at rt I’d definitely start him over leatherwood or Parker. Zion’s versatility is a definite plus. Plus his smarts are off the charts. Even at senior bowl he stayed late getting extra reps a center without anyone telling him. He’s my #1 guy like creed was last year.

No one is trying to take anything away from Zion Johnson.  I was a huge fan last year when no one was talking about him and he was a mid round guy.  But the guy isn’t going to be a long term OT.  You don’t draft him with a plan of getting him reps there.  If he ever plays OT your in a very bad position.  Like, you’ve had so many in game injuries your FORCED to totally rearrange your OL.  Your signing someone off the street or moving someone up from the PS if you have a good option there during the week if you’ve had so many injuries at OT.  

Yes, the Patriots can be unconventional with their requirements for a OT.  But they nor any team is drafting Zion Johnson to be a OT.  If you want to make the point he has potential as a C in the future I’m all aboard that one.  That’s an intriguing possibility for ZJ.  But I’d put money on the fact that ZJ never seems more then 10 snaps at OT his whole long and prosperous  career.

[jimkelly02]

2 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Top 10 LG with how he played in 2020.  Not top ten G overall.  Sorry for the ambiguity.  Did not realize he had missed so many games in his career.  Would definitely want to have some one capable behind him.  I think at $4 he is worth keeping just for his ability to start at 3 positions at an average (RT) to really good level (G).

Ok…. Np. Yeah I’m aboard with top 10 LG.  I wasn’t trying to nitpick you. But I think we can both agree that it’s a fairly important distinction, albeit a technical one.

Again, I’m fully supportive of the idea that Good can play at a high level for us and brings great value with his versatility.  He can play LG, RG, and RT and we can issues at all 3.  His 4.18M is a good price for what he brings to the table.  

On the hand, and the point I was trying to make, Good and the new regime are possibly in a rather unusual situation and he’s not a shoe-in to be on the team in ‘22. 
Yes, he had a very good ‘20 but it wasn’t amazing…. It was very good.  He came here as an December waiver via pickup due to injuries to Gabe Jackson.  Unfortunately, based on his history there are real concerns he can stay healthy a full season, by which I mean start 14+ games AND he’s just coming off a 1 game season.  He does come rather cheap and is a starter your confident of his level of play, if he can play.  He also only has 1 year left on his deal so the FO may believe it’s best to keep him and limit the changes on the OL after having so many last year.  

I think it’s a real coin toss if he’s on the team  next year.  He’s got an equal list of pros and cons… and both lists are rather long and detailed.  If he stays we got a very good starting G who can play RT if needed.  If he goes it’s because we upgraded from him and likely went with a more reliable G.  It just all comes down to how the new regime views him and their confidence in his ability to stay healthy.

If I was a betting man I’d put money down on Good stays and we add a RT via FA or rounds 1-2 in the draft.  There are infinite possibilities as to how the OL shakes out this offseason.  But the scenario with the least amount of variables is Good and Leatherwood are the G.  We can easily afford to keep Good and sign a RT like Morgan Moses for something like 2years,16M.  The good thing (ugh I hate puns and it’s impossible to avoid them with this one) is that we infinite options with FA and the draft and enough resources AND it seems like a FO that wants to stabilize and improve the OL.  Good starting at RT is even an option as he’s played there just as much as he’s played G and he’s similar to other Pats like:

Marcus Cannon who was a RT For an extended period of time.

While a bit smaller then Good but both “larger” OTs, Trent Brown played RT originally then moved to LT due to injuries.

marshall Newhouse was a reserve who started half the year at LT and RT in a pinch

Yodny Cajuste, whose a little slimmer but has similarities, was a 3rd round pick but is Always injured.

Michael Onwenu Has been used at RT.

It’s really hard to decide wether the Pats and their former OL coach Scars really have a “type” or shot to fill their OL with versatile talent and were able to make it work no matter what happened with injuries. That said, Good’s ability to start at LG, RG, RT and play at a high level seems as if it would be something advantageous to the new FO.

[drfrey13]

4 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Ok…. Np. Yeah I’m aboard with top 10 LG.  I wasn’t trying to nitpick you. But I think we can both agree that it’s a fairly important distinction, albeit a technical one.

Again, I’m fully supportive of the idea that Good can play at a high level for us and brings great value with his versatility.  He can play LG, RG, and RT and we can issues at all 3.  His 4.18M is a good price for what he brings to the table.  

On the hand, and the point I was trying to make, Good and the new regime are possibly in a rather unusual situation and he’s not a shoe-in to be on the team in ‘22. 
Yes, he had a very good ‘20 but it wasn’t amazing…. It was very good.  He came here as an December waiver via pickup due to injuries to Gabe Jackson.  Unfortunately, based on his history there are real concerns he can stay healthy a full season, by which I mean start 14+ games AND he’s just coming off a 1 game season.  He does come rather cheap and is a starter your confident of his level of play, if he can play.  He also only has 1 year left on his deal so the FO may believe it’s best to keep him and limit the changes on the OL after having so many last year.  

I think it’s a real coin toss if he’s on the team  next year.  He’s got an equal list of pros and cons… and both lists are rather long and detailed.  If he stays we got a very good starting G who can play RT if needed.  If he goes it’s because we upgraded from him and likely went with a more reliable G.  It just all comes down to how the new regime views him and their confidence in his ability to stay healthy.

If I was a betting man I’d put money down on Good stays and we add a RT via FA or rounds 1-2 in the draft.  There are infinite possibilities as to how the OL shakes out this offseason.  But the scenario with the least amount of variables is Good and Leatherwood are the G.  We can easily afford to keep Good and sign a RT like Morgan Moses for something like 2years,16M.  The good thing (ugh I hate puns and it’s impossible to avoid them with this one) is that we infinite options with FA and the draft and enough resources AND it seems like a FO that wants to stabilize and improve the OL.  Good starting at RT is even an option as he’s played there just as much as he’s played G and he’s similar to other Pats like:

Marcus Cannon who was a RT For an extended period of time.

While a bit smaller then Good but both “larger” OTs, Trent Brown played RT originally then moved to LT due to injuries.

marshall Newhouse was a reserve who started half the year at LT and RT in a pinch

Yodny Cajuste, whose a little slimmer but has similarities, was a 3rd round pick but is Always injured.

Michael Onwenu Has been used at RT.

It’s really hard to decide wether the Pats and their former OL coach Scars really have a “type” or shot to fill their OL with versatile talent and were able to make it work no matter what happened with injuries. That said, Good’s ability to start at LG, RG, RT and play at a high level seems as if it would be something advantageous to the new FO.

Next year will be a very interesting FA period.  I think it will show what type of philosophy the team will have moving forward.  We do not have much cap space but can double it if we make some tough choices.  They could also hold off and wait for 2023 when we will have a lot more flexibility.  We can go in any direction and there are major drawbacks to each one.  We also have some key pieces that can be traded, extended, or wait to resign.  That will also show how they feel about treating FAs.  I will not try to draw to many comparisons to how the Patriots did things because it was BB's way or the highway.  Ziegler can now spread his wings and see if he can fly on his own.  It should be a fun off-season.

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

No one is trying to take anything away from Zion Johnson.  I was a huge fan last year when no one was talking about him and he was a mid round guy.  But the guy isn’t going to be a long term OT.  You don’t draft him with a plan of getting him reps there.  If he ever plays OT your in a very bad position.  Like, you’ve had so many in game injuries your FORCED to totally rearrange your OL.  Your signing someone off the street or moving someone up from the PS if you have a good option there during the week if you’ve had so many injuries at OT.  

Yes, the Patriots can be unconventional with their requirements for a OT.  But they nor any team is drafting Zion Johnson to be a OT.  If you want to make the point he has potential as a C in the future I’m all aboard that one.  That’s an intriguing possibility for ZJ.  But I’d put money on the fact that ZJ never seems more then 10 snaps at OT his whole long and prosperous  career.

All I said was he can play all positions. I’m looking at him as a stud lg. Imo he has the best oline technique in this class that’s why I like him best overall. Hopefully with this new pats staff actual technique is valued more than measurables on the oline. 

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Ever heard of isiah Wynn a guy the pats drafted. 
 

if measurables were that important leatherdude should be a god ot….

 

“The Patriots have shown they aren't afraid to adjust their size requirements at tackle in the past. Matt Light was on the shorter end for a starting tackle under Bill Belichick at a shade under 6-foot-5, about two inches taller than Wynn. Belichick has not drafted a tackle in New England with hands smaller than nine inches. 

Working in Wynn's favor is that his arms (about 33.5 inches) are standard-issue length for Patriots tackles. Light's arms were 33.5 inches. Sebastian Vollmer's were 33.25 inches. But when it comes to height and hand size, Wynn would kind of be breaking the mold.”

You added a lot to that initial response.  Btw I was just being equally chippy back, I think everyone knows who Wynn is.

Yes, NE and Scars (now retired legend of s OL coach) have deployed a lot of non-prototype OTs over the years.  It’s a very interesting and unique situation that is we could go into great detail about but I won’t, as it’s end up being too long of a conversation.  
 

I get what your saying with Light and Volmer to Some degree but I don’t think their physically unique to their LT and RT positions.  Light was 6’4 305 and back in 2001 that wasn’t a novelty, it was 1” and 5 pounds from the usual.  20 years ago their where plenty of LTs in that close size range. 
volmer is 6’8 but had short arms.  It’s a little unusual, but overall I really don’t feel like that’s a great example of “breaking the mold”.   I Think the better argument you could have made and most recently NE used Michael Owenu at RT for a good stretch.  He’s 6’ 2 5/8” and 344 (his weight has fluctuationed as high as 375 While At Michigan, who knows what’s he really weights but he was 344 at combine and often listed as that now) with 34 3/8” arms and 10.5” hands.  He’s rather short but has good OT length arms and mits for hands.  
 

Had you just said “ZJ can play all 3 iOL and could even play LT in pinch. He started his Jr Year that LT” Then I wouldn’t have said anything.  I’m not trying to bust balls here, just bored (stuck in hospital for the last week and finally able to play on my phone for extended periods of time) having a conversation.  That said, am I nitpicking a bit?  Absolutely!  
 

Yeah ZJ could play LT in a NE scheme in pinch, but I think it’d be a real pinch and very unlikely.  To me ZJ can start at all botb
G’s and C and play at a high level.  Ideally he’s a LG though.  K. Green could be a staring LG, RG, RT and play LT in a pinch but not C.  Their versatility is pretty much equal, albeit different.  
 

Overall, I think Green is a better prospect.  At one point early on he was valued too high, when he was a top 5-10 pick.  Then he spent the season moving all over the place, including switching positions in the middle of games.  I think had be started at RT and stayed there he’s be valued as a 14-22 pick where as now he seems to be move in the 20s.  Sure that’s not a huge drop but In some Ways its Pretty substantial.  ZJ on the other hand is more of a second round G that could sneak into late Round 1 a GM pulls a Mayock And gives a blank draft card to the OL coach and let’s him Fill it onto.

Overall, I’d be really disappointed if we drafted ZJ At 22 or even traded down a bit to get him.  There’s a ton of reasons Why I believe that but that’s a whole post in itself.  Overall, if we draft a OL in round 1 it’s just gotta be a RT or it’s a bad pick IMO.  And if it’s a versatile OL like Green we better have a great amount of faith in the fact that he’s a starting RT.  We can’t end up with Leatherwood and Green at G.

 

 

[big_palooka]

OGs are cheaper. Sign a starting caliber OG and draft OT high. It sucks, but they have to fix the previous regimes mess with the Leatherwood pick.

[Bitty 2.0]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

OGs are cheaper. Sign a starting caliber OG and draft OT high. It sucks, but they have to fix the previous regimes mess with the Leatherwood pick.

100% I would take an RT in the second or third round.

[drfrey13]

58 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

100% I would take an RT in the second or third round.

I think there will be a few quality RTs drafted on day 2. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

10 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

You added a lot to that initial response.  Btw I was just being equally chippy back, I think everyone knows who Wynn is.

Yes, NE and Scars (now retired legend of s OL coach) have deployed a lot of non-prototype OTs over the years.  It’s a very interesting and unique situation that is we could go into great detail about but I won’t, as it’s end up being too long of a conversation.  
 

I get what your saying with Light and Volmer to Some degree but I don’t think their physically unique to their LT and RT positions.  Light was 6’4 305 and back in 2001 that wasn’t a novelty, it was 1” and 5 pounds from the usual.  20 years ago their where plenty of LTs in that close size range. 
volmer is 6’8 but had short arms.  It’s a little unusual, but overall I really don’t feel like that’s a great example of “breaking the mold”.   I Think the better argument you could have made and most recently NE used Michael Owenu at RT for a good stretch.  He’s 6’ 2 5/8” and 344 (his weight has fluctuationed as high as 375 While At Michigan, who knows what’s he really weights but he was 344 at combine and often listed as that now) with 34 3/8” arms and 10.5” hands.  He’s rather short but has good OT length arms and mits for hands.  
 

Had you just said “ZJ can play all 3 iOL and could even play LT in pinch. He started his Jr Year that LT” Then I wouldn’t have said anything.  I’m not trying to bust balls here, just bored (stuck in hospital for the last week and finally able to play on my phone for extended periods of time) having a conversation.  That said, am I nitpicking a bit?  Absolutely!  
 

Yeah ZJ could play LT in a NE scheme in pinch, but I think it’d be a real pinch and very unlikely.  To me ZJ can start at all botb
G’s and C and play at a high level.  Ideally he’s a LG though.  K. Green could be a staring LG, RG, RT and play LT in a pinch but not C.  Their versatility is pretty much equal, albeit different.  
 

Overall, I think Green is a better prospect.  At one point early on he was valued too high, when he was a top 5-10 pick.  Then he spent the season moving all over the place, including switching positions in the middle of games.  I think had be started at RT and stayed there he’s be valued as a 14-22 pick where as now he seems to be move in the 20s.  Sure that’s not a huge drop but In some Ways its Pretty substantial.  ZJ on the other hand is more of a second round G that could sneak into late Round 1 a GM pulls a Mayock And gives a blank draft card to the OL coach and let’s him Fill it onto.

Overall, I’d be really disappointed if we drafted ZJ At 22 or even traded down a bit to get him.  There’s a ton of reasons Why I believe that but that’s a whole post in itself.  Overall, if we draft a OL in round 1 it’s just gotta be a RT or it’s a bad pick IMO.  And if it’s a versatile OL like Green we better have a great amount of faith in the fact that he’s a starting RT.  We can’t end up with Leatherwood and Green at G.

 

 

Fair enough you definitely have valid points I just think Zion’s technique is supreme. Technique is king to me especially for rookies getting their feet wet. size is ok but I don’t like the “build a dancing bear” approach that guys like cable use. I’d rather have a stud who can lock a spot down for half a decade. Only guy I saw last year was creed. Sure he’s a center and they usually don’t get drafted early but technique imo changes everything. I don’t really look at position I look at technique. After the top 3 ots are off the board I don’t see any good ones till third round. I’m looking at ot’s later in the draft like the guy from Arizona st and penn st. 

[Dessie]

What round do you see Alec Pierce WR Cincinnati going ? Seems as though he’s ranked anywhere from late 1st - 4th round ?

Edited February 23, 2022 by Dessie

[MrOaktown_56]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

OGs are cheaper. Sign a starting caliber OG and draft OT high. It sucks, but they have to fix the previous regimes mess with the Leatherwood pick.

This OL coach can develop leatherwood into a good OG IMO. Leatherwood has A grade physical tools. He just needs to be coached up. I don't like his hand usage at all. He's very salvageable, plus Good is a good starting guard. I agree, tackle needs to be addressed, either by a vet and/or by drafting a promising OT.

[NCOUGHMAN]

Hmmmm lol interesting