UPDATE: Morgan Moses Released! Geron Christian too!

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Because...

Say it with me...

We killed his trade value and tipped our hand and tried to do the trade after we drafted and signed a bunch of OT.

So yeah, if I'm another team, I know I will be able to get him cheaper because I know he'll be on the street soon. 

Had the F.O. been smart about this, they would've been able to trade him.

That’s something we truly don’t know the answer to. We have no clue if we were shopping Moses on the 2nd day of the draft when it looked like we were going to be able to draft Cosmi.

I’d also add that it would have been really really stupid to trade Moses before the the draft. If we had traded Moses before drafting Cosmi we’d be really, really bare at OT and make it a must need. Then, we signed Leno after the draft when he was cut to upgrade LT, not RT which is Moses’s position.

Now, I think your argument works in regard to Leno, even though the two play different positions. We may have tried to and should’ve been trying to hard to trade Moses as we were first contacting Leno, but even then what if we traded Moses and then Leno signed somewhere else?

I bet you, Lavar, E & others would be even more upset if that had played out and our starting OTs would be looking like Lucas & Cosmi or Christian Right now. That situation could’ve played out as well, which would’ve been even worse than not being able to trade Moses’s contract after we drafted Cosmi & signed Leno. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by turtle28

[Ozzy]

Wow, well guess there goes that depth on the OL but seriously it was a little ridiculous to have that many quality players because clearly they cannot all play and or make the roster.  Takes arguably the top two RTs off the team.

 

LT Charles Leno Jr / Samuel Cosmi
LG Wes Schweitzer / Ereck Flowers / Beau Benzschawel
C Chase Roullier / Tyler Larsen
RG Brandon Scherff / Keith Ismael
RT Cornelius Lucas / Saahdiq Charles / Rick Leonard

 

Now either that is a huge vote of confidence for Cornelius Lucas, and maybe it is, same for potentially Saahdig Charles.  Sure Cosmi could start over there also but I view him more as a LT.  Leno is really the safety net for Cosmi because with his athletic ability he should be a LT.

Still again they must think pretty highly of Lucas who has been decent at times and Charles.  Odd to cut a long time starter in Moses to save around $7.5 mil but signed Leno for $5 mil? Sure saved a bit of money but Leno is not as good as Moses is and has not been apart of the organization as long either.  So that to me is odd, why get Leno when they could have not signed Leno and kept Morgan and have Cosmi start at LT or maybe even Charles.  Guess they were not confident in that and really Cosmi would be surprised if he starts this year based on how he looked at Texas.

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Wow, well guess there goes that depth on the OL but seriously it was a little ridiculous to have that many quality players because clearly they cannot all play and or make the roster.  Takes arguably the top two RTs off the team.

 

LT Charles Leno Jr / Samuel Cosmi
LG Wes Schweitzer / Ereck Flowers / Beau Benzschawel
C Chase Roullier / Tyler Larsen
RG Brandon Scherff / Keith Ismael
RT Cornelius Lucas / Saahdiq Charles / Rick Leonard

 

Now either that is a huge vote of confidence for Cornelius Lucas, and maybe it is, same for potentially Saahdig Charles.  Sure Cosmi could start over there also but I view him more as a LT.  Leno is really the safety net for Cosmi because with his athletic ability he should be a LT.

Still again they must think pretty highly of Lucas who has been decent at times and Charles.  Odd to cut a long time starter in Moses to save around $7.5 mil but signed Leno for $5 mil? Sure saved a bit of money but Leno is not as good as Moses is and has not been apart of the organization as long either.  So that to me is odd, why get Leno when they could have not signed Leno and kept Morgan and have Cosmi start at LT or maybe even Charles.  Guess they were not confident in that and really Cosmi would be surprised if he starts this year based on how he looked at Texas.

Christian was not one of our best OTs, if he was Rivera wouldn’t have cut him.

Its debatable if Moses is better than Lucas. I do know they’re about equal and Lucas has played more LT than Moses in his career plus, Lucas is 1/4 the cost of Moses.
 

Moses isn’t better than Leno in my eyes, Leno has been a starting LT for the same time that Moses has been a starting RT, you face better pass rushers at LT than RT and Leno was an alternate and played in the pro bowl in 2018, Moses has never been considered for the pro bowl.

We also know that they like Charles a lot, whether Charles plays guard or OT, they like him. They had him pegged as the starter at LG last year but he got hurt, so I think that says that they like him more than Christian. 
 

Christian didn’t prove he could be reliable in his entire time in Washington & he was inconsistent and often injured. When Lucas replaced Christian last year, Lucas was better and our run game/pass pro improved.
 

The reason they got Leno is because they see him as an upgrade at LT. Cosmi will be competing w/ Lucas & Charles this year to be our starting RT but will probably end up being Leno’s back up at LT. The reason Moses was cut was because he and Lucas are about equal and Lucas is a 1/4 the cost. It’s pretty clear they made the decision to go with youth and develop these young and athletic OL - Charles & Cosmi - rather than pay Moses and get inconsistent play.

[lavar703]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Christian was not one of our best OTs, if he was Rivera wouldn’t have cut him.

Its debatable if Moses is better than Lucas. I do know they’re about equal and Lucas has played more LT than Moses in his career plus, Lucas is 1/4 the cost of Moses.
 

Moses isn’t better than Leno in my eyes, Leno has been a starting LT for the same time that Moses has been a starting RT, you face better pass rushers at LT than RT and Leno was an alternate and played in the pro bowl in 2018, Moses has never been considered for the pro bowl.

We also know that they like Charles a lot, whether Charles plays guard or OT, they like him. They had him pegged as the starter at LG last year but he got hurt, so I think that says that they like him more than Christian. 
 

Christian didn’t prove he could be reliable in his entire time in Washington & he was inconsistent and often injured. When Lucas replaced Christian last year, Lucas was better and our run game/pass pro improved.
 

The reason they got Leno is because they see him as an upgrade at LT. Cosmi will be competing w/ Lucas & Charles this year to be our starting RT but will probably end up being Leno’s back up at LT. The reason Moses was cut was because he and Lucas are about equal and Lucas is a 1/4 the cost. It’s pretty clear they made the decision to go with youth and develop these young and athletic OL - Charles & Cosmi - rather than pay Moses and get inconsistent play.

It is not debatable between Lucas and Moses. Lucas is nearly 30 years old and cannot get a starting job to save his life. Moses has started 96 consecutive games and has done so pretty well for the most part. I have no idea why you keep doing this? Moses is clearly the better player. 

[Ozzy]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Christian was not one of our best OTs, if he was Rivera wouldn’t have cut him.

Its debatable if Moses is better than Lucas. I do know they’re about equal and Lucas has played more LT than Moses in his career plus, Lucas is 1/4 the cost of Moses.
 

Moses isn’t better than Leno in my eyes, Leno has been a starting LT for the same time that Moses has been a starting RT, you face better pass rushers at LT than RT and Leno was an alternate and played in the pro bowl in 2018, Moses has never been considered for the pro bowl.

We also know that they like Charles a lot, whether Charles plays guard or OT, they like him. They had him pegged as the starter at LG last year but he got hurt, so I think that says that they like him more than Christian. 
 

Christian didn’t prove he could be reliable in his entire time in Washington & he was inconsistent and often injured. When Lucas replaced Christian last year, Lucas was better and our run game/pass pro improved.
 

The reason they got Leno is because they see him as an upgrade at LT. Cosmi will be competing w/ Lucas & Charles this year to be our starting RT but will probably end up being Leno’s back up at LT. The reason Moses was cut was because he and Lucas are about equal and Lucas is a 1/4 the cost. It’s pretty clear they made the decision to go with youth and develop these young and athletic OL - Charles & Cosmi - rather than pay Moses and get inconsistent play.

I like Lucas and I like the potential of Charles but could have said the same thing about Christian a few years ago, about his potential and talent.

Leno yes played LT a harder position to play generally speaking than RT.  But Leno and that Bears OL sucked last year and if he was this great tackle they would have never got rid of him.  They did because honestly he is not that good, they drafted Teven Jenkins who is arguably a better RT than LT to play LT for them this year and save a bit of money in the process.  If Leno was this great LT they would have never let him go on an already underperforming offensive line.  

Will be curious who ends up starting for the Redskins, I assume it will be Lucas at RT and hopefully he can be a full time starter for them this up coming year because again not sure Cosmi is ready for it yet but will see.  

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

I like Lucas and I like the potential of Charles but could have said the same thing about Christian a few years ago, about his potential and talent.

Leno yes played LT a harder position to play generally speaking than RT.  But Leno and that Bears OL sucked last year and if he was this great tackle they would have never got rid of him.  They did because honestly he is not that good, they drafted Teven Jenkins who is arguably a better RT than LT to play LT for them this year and save a bit of money in the process.  If Leno was this great LT they would have never let him go on an already underperforming offensive line.  

Will be curious who ends up starting for the Redskins, I assume it will be Lucas at RT and hopefully he can be a full time starter for them this up coming year because again not sure Cosmi is ready for it yet but will see.  

Yeah, so I don’t think Leno is a great LT but, I think Leno is at worst middle of the road which is an upgrade for us. Lucas played well but we have to remember that w/ Alex Smith Washington ran a very quick passing game to protect Alex Smith, rarely did our OL have to hold blocks long, so I think our OLs production in pass pro is a bit construed bc of how fast Alex got rid of the ball.

I think the RT competition is going to be a good one between Cosmi & Lucas. I want Cosmi to win it & play well because then it means we have a new long term answers at one of the OT positions but I have a feeling it’s going to be Lucas.

As far as Charles goes, I think he’s more talented and definitely stronger than Christian. Christian’s main issue hasn’t been his athletic ability as an OT, it’s that he’s never put the work in in the weight rook to get stronger the way he’s needed to, that’s not an issue for Charles. If Charles didn’t have some off the field issues at LSU he may have been a 1st round pick in last years draft, at worst a 2nd round pick. I can’t imagine him continuing to have injury issues. I think he’ll eventually start at guard or tackle. I think it’s only a matter of time. 

[RSkinGM]

I read something that made sense to me . The premise was.. If Moses was a F A on the Market. Would you sign him for 2 years and $16 mill. ? Essentially that was the situation . ( no guaranteed money ) The answer to me is Heck NO, who would- That's why we had to cut him and he wasn't tradeable . Simply 😛

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, RSkinGM said:

I read something that made sense to me . The premise was.. If Moses was a F A on the Market. Would you sign him for 2 years and $16 mill. ? Essentially that was the situation . ( no guaranteed money ) The answer to me is Heck NO, who would- That's why we had to cut him and he wasn't tradeable . Simply 😛

That’s what I’ve been saying. We signed a guy who’s started LT since 2015 for the Bears for $5 million. Why should a RT like Moses who’s up and down be making twice as much plus, we have a comparable player to play RT in Lucas and we have Cosmi & Charles developing as possible starters too.

I do think Moses will find a new job but he’d be wise to sign a one-year deal this year, hopefully play as well as he did last year and then get a decent 2 or 3 year deal to close out his career in 2022 when the new TV $ kicks in.

There are several teams that could use him. Oddly enough, one of them is the Bears who look rather bare at OT now because they cut Leno. Yes they have Tevin Jenkins but at RT they only have Elijah Wilkinson who’s started some games at Denver the last two years but isn’t on Moses’s level.

Another place I could see Moses ending up is Kansas City. The Chiefs obviously traded for Orlando Brown to be their LT, and right now they have Mike Remmers slated to start at RT. I think Moses is a better RT than Remmers so if they signed him he’d be a starter for them probably.
 

Also, Pittsburgh could use more competition at OT. They have a 3rd year 3rd round pick projected to play LT who has no experience at LT but did play 15 games at RT last year. I think if the Steelers signed Moses he could start at LT or even RT and they could move Zach Banner to LG. The Steelers have young talent along their OL they’ve accumulated over the last 3 years but outside of DeCastro they don’t have any sure things but Zach Banner who can play G or RT.

Edited May 22, 2021 by turtle28

[Thaiphoon]

5 hours ago, RSkinGM said:

I read something that made sense to me . The premise was.. If Moses was a F A on the Market. Would you sign him for 2 years and $16 mill. ? Essentially that was the situation . ( no guaranteed money ) The answer to me is Heck NO, who would- That's why we had to cut him and he wasn't tradeable . Simply 😛

If I'm looking now? No

If my starting RT goes down in training camp or in Late September/Early Oct and I'm a playoff hopeful team? You bet I will sign him for that. $8M AAV is not that much for a starting RT.

Or if I'm a team that has a lot of holes and was deciding on OL vs another position in Day 1 and Day 2 of the draft? I'd sign him to that and plug that hole on my roster so that it could allow me to draft other positions

Also - I've seen that he only had $14m left on his extension ($40m total, $26m had been spent). Or is that extra $2m the remaining guaranteed money that is now dead money for us this year? 

[turtle28]

19 hours ago, lavar703 said:

It is not debatable between Lucas and Moses. Lucas is nearly 30 years old and cannot get a starting job to save his life. Moses has started 96 consecutive games and has done so pretty well for the most part. I have no idea why you keep doing this? Moses is clearly the better player. 

Oh I realize what the previous 5 years was but I’m not talking about 2014-2018, I’m talking about present day. Lucas started 8 games for the Bears at LT & RT in 2019 and he didn’t give up a sack and he started 8 games for us last year - really he should’ve started all season - and he only gave up 2 sacks. So, in 16 games started over the last two years he only gave up 2 sacks, that’s pretty damn good and he’s huge and physical so he’s a good run blocker.

Lucas played at worst equal to Moses last year and he did that as a LT and, from what I can see, Lucas is bigger, stronger and more physical in the run game. And, last time I checked Matsko/Rivera just chose Lucas over Moses to likely be our starting RT this year.
 

Maybe they’re wrong and no offense, but I’ll take Matsko’s evaluation of Lucas vs Moses over yours. Again, as I’ve said this entire thread, I like Moses, I always have but I feel as a fan base most have overrated him and I have done that as well bc frankly I was always worried if we cut him a few years ago when he was struggling with injuries year after year that we wouldn’t be able to do equal or better, but I believe we have by signing Lucas last year and Cosmi/Charles/Sharpe are our future at the OT positions.
 

We can go back and forth on which is actually better. I’ll settle on Lucas & Moses over the last two years are about equal even though the stats of Lucas taking less penalties (0 vs Moses’s 15) and Lucas only giving up 2 sacks over his 16 starts the last two years points to him being the better OT currently in my mind and I trust Matsko/Rivera in that evaluation as well.

Edited May 23, 2021 by turtle28

[turtle28]

10 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

If I'm looking now? No

If my starting RT goes down in training camp or in Late September/Early Oct and I'm a playoff hopeful team? You bet I will sign him for that. $8M AAV is not that much for a starting RT.

Or if I'm a team that has a lot of holes and was deciding on OL vs another position in Day 1 and Day 2 of the draft? I'd sign him to that and plug that hole on my roster so that it could allow me to draft other positions

Also - I've seen that he only had $14m left on his extension ($40m total, $26m had been spent). Or is that extra $2m the remaining guaranteed money that is now dead money for us this year? 

Most years yes, but with the cap shrinking this year I don’t think so; that’s how we were able to get Leno for just $5 million when if it had been last year or previous years we would’ve had to give him about $10 million for one season or sign him to a LTD w/ a good chunk of guaranteed $.

 

I hate it for Moses, but I think he’s going to be lucky to find a team to give him a 1-year $5 million contract for this season. My feeling is he’s going to have to sign somewhere for less than $5 million this year, play well on that team and then earn another contract for 2 or 3 years when the TV $ kicks in next year they pays him like $5 million a year. I worry for Moses that the days of him making $7-10 million a year are over.

Edited May 23, 2021 by turtle28

[offbyone]

14 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

If I'm looking now? No

If my starting RT goes down in training camp or in Late September/Early Oct and I'm a playoff hopeful team? You bet I will sign him for that. $8M AAV is not that much for a starting RT.

Or if I'm a team that has a lot of holes and was deciding on OL vs another position in Day 1 and Day 2 of the draft? I'd sign him to that and plug that hole on my roster so that it could allow me to draft other positions

Also - I've seen that he only had $14m left on his extension ($40m total, $26m had been spent). Or is that extra $2m the remaining guaranteed money that is now dead money for us this year? 

Exactly...not now.  The real crime of this whole issue is the timing.  We couldn't have timed this worse in terms of us getting compensation for Moses at a time when he actually held great worth contract wise and coming off one of his best seasons.  To make it worse, sadly, not only did we screw ourselves, we screwed moses over too.  All the spots have been filled by this time of year.  Options are limited.  He will have to likely take a 1 year deal below his value and hope he doesn't get hurt.  

[turtle28]

3 hours ago, offbyone said:

Exactly...not now.  The real crime of this whole issue is the timing.  We couldn't have timed this worse in terms of us getting compensation for Moses at a time when he actually held great worth contract wise and coming off one of his best seasons.  To make it worse, sadly, not only did we screw ourselves, we screwed moses over too.  All the spots have been filled by this time of year.  Options are limited.  He will have to likely take a 1 year deal below his value and hope he doesn't get hurt.  

Ok, so I’ll say it again, we don’t know if we tried to trade Moses during the draft or told him/his agent after we drafted Cosmi that they had permission to seek a trade then. We do know that they definitely waited until they signed Leno, which makes 100% sense to me. They covered their base at LT and then can have Lucas and Cosmi compete to start at RT. 
 

If we had traded Moses before signing Leno I would think everyone would have more of a problem here than they actually do, so that timing argument doesn’t make sense to me. Of course they’re not going to trade Moses or tell him he can seek a trade before they’ve drafted Cosmi & signed Leno, there was no guarantee they’d get either of those players. If they had traded Moses before those acquisitions their cupboard at Ot would’ve been looking real bare & I would hope everyone would’ve been upset even if we got a 3rd for Moses. If we had traded Moses before the drsft, not been able to draft Cosmi & Leno had signed somewhere else, that would’ve been a much bigger issue than not being able to recuperate a late round pick for Moses.

We didn’t do Moses wrong. Many teams still could use an upgrade or competition at both OT positions. We weren’t going to cut Moses w/o having covered our bases first, so of course they didn’t cut or trade Moses before the draft.

Cutting Moses in September on final cuts would’ve been screwing over Moses, NOT cutting him I May 4 months before the season starts. Teams still need OTs & teams could have injuries in cap/preseason and a job could open up for Moses. And he actually should want to sign a 1 year deal bc next year the TV $ comes in and he could sign a better 2 or 3 year deal if he plays well this year on his 1 year deal

[LoganF89]

The thing that I find the most interesting about this topic is honestly the Ereck Flowers trade. Scherrf and Schweitzer both played extremely well last year, and I think even with Scherrf probably leaving after the season that they wouldn’t have made that trade if they truly thought that Charles was gonna be a future starting guard.

I honestly think the two book ends of the future of this Oline will be Cosmi and Charles. I mean think about it. Why would they trade for Flowers if Charles if they thought Charles would play guard? And why would they release 2 tackles if they thought Charles would play guard as well? I know the drafting of Cosmi coughs up 1 spot but we let two guys go.

in the end this screams to me that Charles is a future RT in this Oline. The reason I see that is bc of the cuts and trades and also that Leno and Lucas each are on a 1 year deal right now

prediction of this Oline beyond this year is

Cosmi, Flowers, Roullier, ?, Charles

RG to me is where we either draft or sign an FA next year bc let’s face it... Scherrf is gone

[Thaiphoon]

On 5/23/2021 at 7:33 AM, turtle28 said:

Most years yes, but with the cap shrinking this year I don’t think so; that’s how we were able to get Leno for just $5 million when if it had been last year or previous years we would’ve had to give him about $10 million for one season or sign him to a LTD w/ a good chunk of guaranteed $.

 

I hate it for Moses, but I think he’s going to be lucky to find a team to give him a 1-year $5 million contract for this season. My feeling is he’s going to have to sign somewhere for less than $5 million this year, play well on that team and then earn another contract for 2 or 3 years when the TV $ kicks in next year they pays him like $5 million a year. I worry for Moses that the days of him making $7-10 million a year are over.

Yes. Because the timing sucks for both the team and the player. You're stating something I haven't disputed. And again, it is a result of the mismanagement I've talked about. Again, $8m for a starting RT is not too much $$. We could've traded him to a team that was desperate for one (or at least had a hole there and needed to be able to shore it up so they could address other positions.

But we did it completely "bass-ackwards" and tanked his trade value while virtually ensuring that no team will open up the checkbook to sign him.

The time to sell air conditioners is when you're in the desert, not when you're on Mt. Everest.