2021 Baker thread

[MWil23]

I still maintain that the 2nd half of the year, Stefanski basically went all in on "real" quarterbacking gameplans and said "it's sink or swim time for Baker".

In the short term, really not a good decision and I think the Pittsburgh game especially showed that. However, watching him flounder and his inability to read a defense, navigate the pocket, or deliver throws in rhythm on time that weren't orchestrated playaction passes was nothing short of alarming.

I loathe Watson as a human being. He's also an infinitely better quarterback.

[sdrawkcab321]

20 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I still maintain that the 2nd half of the year, Stefanski basically went all in on "real" quarterbacking gameplans and said "it's sink or swim time for Baker".

In the short term, really not a good decision and I think the Pittsburgh game especially showed that. However, watching him flounder and his inability to read a defense, navigate the pocket, or deliver throws in rhythm on time that weren't orchestrated playaction passes was nothing short of alarming.

I loathe Watson as a human being. He's also an infinitely better quarterback.

If stefanski actually did that which cost us games he’s a pretty trash coach. 

[MWil23]

Just now, sdrawkcab321 said:

If stefanski actually did that which cost us games he’s a pretty trash coach. 

I mean, I think it's a matter of saying that at some point, when you've got a COVID decimated roster, banged up RBs, and your own job/future is on the line, there's a time to see if/when he can make the jump, if ever.

The unwritten rule is that each coach has about 1 opportunity to get "their guy" at quarterback within 3 seasons, and if they don't, then they're a lame duck or out the door with a rookie or before that, and he probably said "I'm not doing a 3rd year with Baker if he can't succeed as a dropback passer."

Every analytic metric on the planet shows that Baker is AWFUL at:

*Non playaction passes

*HISTORICALLY AWFUL in the 4th quarter and beyond since his rookie year

*Turnover prone

*Holds the ball and accounted for an insane amount of sacks that he caused himself

So yeah, in a year where the OBJ situation fell the way it did and he lost the locker room, at that point, it's on Baker to show that he can play as a viable NFL QB who has gotten better or he can't. The training wheels had to/have to come off at some point.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean, I think it's a matter of saying that at some point, when you've got a COVID decimated roster, banged up RBs, and your own job/future is on the line, there's a time to see if/when he can make the jump, if ever.

The unwritten rule is that each coach has about 1 opportunity to get "their guy" at quarterback within 3 seasons, and if they don't, then they're a lame duck or out the door with a rookie or before that, and he probably said "I'm not doing a 3rd year with Baker if he can't succeed as a dropback passer."

Every analytic metric on the planet shows that Baker is AWFUL at:

*Non playaction passes

*HISTORICALLY AWFUL in the 4th quarter and beyond since his rookie year

*Turnover prone

*Holds the ball and accounted for an insane amount of sacks that he caused himself

So yeah, in a year where the OBJ situation fell the way it did and he lost the locker room, at that point, it's on Baker to show that he can play as a viable NFL QB who has gotten better or he can't. The training wheels had to/have to come off at some point.

Yeah it’s an unfortunate situation in the moment, but long term you have to figure out what you have in Baker.  I suppose they could have kicked the can for another season, but at some point you need to **** or get off the pot.

Whether we like it or not, they clearly saw enough last season to make them want to go in another direction.

Perhaps they could have protected him more and just moved on after the season, but unless you let him fail you’d never really know if he was up to the task or not.

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Yeah it’s an unfortunate situation in the moment, but long term you have to figure out what you have in Baker.  I suppose they could have kicked the can for another season, but at some point you need to **** or get off the pot.

From a financial situation alone at the QB position, not to mention a W/L perspective and living in "limbo land", they owe it to the whole organization and the rest of the players on that team. They have a loaded OL, top tier EDGE guy, loaded secondary with a multiple time pro bowl CB who is only 24, and a three headed RB monster any team ever would kill for. Those who wanted to blame the WR for his failures I'll never understand. I get those dudes collectively aren't great, but clearly with how things played out, he was missing open dudes, so their lack of catches and production is probably more causation from the QB vs. correlation from the WR unit.

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Whether we like it or not, they clearly saw enough last season to make them want to go in another direction.

No question. And to be honest, so did I. I think I'd like to have believed a lot of it was based on injury, but that 4 year analytic study that @candyman93 posted was undeniable.

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Perhaps they could have protected him more and just moved on after the season, but unless you let him fail you’d never really know if he was up to the task or not.

Training wheels--> Have to come off eventually to ride a bike

Swimming lessons/floaties--> Have to come off eventually to swim or you have to be thrown in on your own

The same goes for things like internships, student teaching, etc.

If he couldn't succeed as a dropback guy going through progressions, then it's time to move on. I fault the Browns for how they moved on and who they got (as a person, not as a player), but I don't fault them one bit for moving on from Baker.

You hit the nail on the head. Immaturity to go with a plethora of other issues. He's also not consistent enough. You can be inaccurate OR turnover prone, but not both, especially if you have a prickly personality.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

From a financial situation alone at the QB position, not to mention a W/L perspective and living in "limbo land", they owe it to the whole organization and the rest of the players on that team. They have a loaded OL, top tier EDGE guy, loaded secondary with a multiple time pro bowl CB who is only 24, and a three headed RB monster any team ever would kill for. Those who wanted to blame the WR for his failures I'll never understand. I get those dudes collectively aren't great, but clearly with how things played out, he was missing open dudes, so their lack of catches and production is probably more causation from the QB vs. correlation from the WR unit.

oh I still think a lot of the issues were WR too.  There’s a reason those guys aren’t here either.  There’s a reason Jarvis was offered the league min, why we traded for cooper, why we drafted 2 receivers, etc.. I can count on one hand how many plays WR made for the QB last season.

[MWil23]

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

oh I still think a lot of the issues were WR too.  There’s a reason those guys aren’t here either.  There’s a reason Jarvis was offered the league min, why we traded for cooper, why we drafted 2 receivers, etc.. I can count on one hand how many plays WR made for the QB last season.

I think the WR were probably about 10% of the issue last year. We've seen some great QB's win with low level talent at that position. Obviously the league has evolved, and don't get me wrong, I've been banging the drum for elite WR draft picks for a decade now, but when you see TB12 in New England and even Josh Allen (I know he has Diggs who is a stud) spreading the ball around, not to mention Russell Wilson his first few years in Seattle, it's hard not to put most of that blame on the QB.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I think the WR were probably about 10% of the issue last year. We've seen some great QB's win with low level talent at that position. Obviously the league has evolved, and don't get me wrong, I've been banging the drum for elite WR draft picks for a decade now, but when you see TB12 in New England and even Josh Allen (I know he has Diggs who is a stud) spreading the ball around, not to mention Russell Wilson his first few years in Seattle, it's hard not to put most of that blame on the QB.

I get your point, but you listed the GOAT, another likely HOFer and arguably the most physically talented dude to ever play QB (who also happens to have a stud #1).

I just think that realistically you need to be able to lean on every position group at times throughout the season to make plays and win games. The OL and backs clearly did their part.  Baker I felt did his part some of the time.  I don’t ever remember anyone other than DPJ ever making a big play or actually outplaying the guy opposite him.

By and large our WR’s were slow (dead last in the league using ESPN’s speed rating at one point), unable to win 1:1 vs man save DPJ on occasion, had questionable hands as a group, and required scheming for most of those dudes to get open or make a play.  OBJ and Juice both had to be force fed the ball.  It was all high volume, low impact plays.  
 

Our WR’s were the equivalent of the undersized 2 guard who scores 20ppg but needs 25 shots a game to do it and it’s all done via iso and inefficient mid range jumpers. Some bulk numbers look good but it’s not a winning formula.

[candyman93]

Still rooting for Baker to end up in Detroit. If I wasn’t a Browns fan I’d 100% be a Lions fan because of watching Barry Sanders.

 

He’s just a perfect fit for that franchise, coach, and team. He’d do better in a dome too. Put Baker on Detroit and they’re a playoff team this year.

[MWil23]

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I get your point, but you listed the GOAT, another likely HOFer and arguably the most physically talented dude to ever play QB (who also happens to have a stud #1).

Which is why I said RW his first few years. He had a bunch of mediocre dudes then. Brady is definitely an outlier, I get it.

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I just think that realistically you need to be able to lean on every position group at times throughout the season to make plays and win games. The OL and backs clearly did their part.  Baker I felt did his part some of the time.  I don’t ever remember anyone other than DPJ ever making a big play or actually outplaying the guy opposite him.

Njoku balled out vs. the Chargers but yes I agree.

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

By and large our WR’s were slow (dead last in the league using ESPN’s speed rating at one point), unable to win 1:1 vs man save DPJ on occasion, had questionable hands as a group, and required scheming for most of those dudes to get open or make a play.  OBJ and Juice both had to be force fed the ball.  It was all high volume, low impact plays.  

I still think that he missed a lot of timing and his accuracy was literally never good. He can and has and will make some WOW tight window throws, but he never consistently puts balls with RAC opportunities (not that it matters with this group of WR) or where only his guy can make a catch. Many of his throws between the numbers are also late, which is why he throws so many picks.

30 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Our WR’s were the equivalent of the undersized 2 guard who scores 20ppg but needs 25 shots a game to do it and it’s all done via iso and inefficient mid range jumpers. Some bulk numbers look good but it’s not a winning formula.

Past his prime A.I. or Kobe. Yeah I get what you're saying. 

[big poppa pump]

The behind the scenes stuff with Baker really doesn't make a difference.  QB's are sometimes hard to work with, but they don't lose their jobs for those types of things.  The Browns saw an opportunity to upgrade the position, in a way that is extremely rare (via trade) and they made the move.  It's obvious that the only thing that matters is who can play QB at a high level!

[Thomas5737]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I still maintain that the 2nd half of the year, Stefanski basically went all in on "real" quarterbacking gameplans and said "it's sink or swim time for Baker".

In the short term, really not a good decision and I think the Pittsburgh game especially showed that. However, watching him flounder and his inability to read a defense, navigate the pocket, or deliver throws in rhythm on time that weren't orchestrated playaction passes was nothing short of alarming.

I loathe Watson as a human being. He's also an infinitely better quarterback.

You seem to have changed your tune. You said all second half last season that Stefanski was calling 5 wide because that was the easiest reads for a QB and now you are saying the opposite. 

[MWil23]

13 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

You seem to have changed your tune. You said all second half last season that Stefanski was calling 5 wide because that was the easiest reads for a QB and now you are saying the opposite. 

I’m not changing my tune, I’m doubling down. He even went the bridge route to make straight drop backs easier for him as an in between the heavy obvious play action or gap scheme runs by putting him in shotgun since he struggles so much under center and then gave him high percentage throws and easier reads and he wasn’t even able to do those things, by which case since he couldn’t be successful doing that he’d never be able to make a jump to the next tier, or at least not anytime soon.

[Thomas5737]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I’m not changing my tune, I’m doubling down. He even went the bridge route to make straight drop backs easier for him as an in between the heavy obvious play action or gap scheme runs by putting him in shotgun since he struggles so much under center and then gave him high percentage throws and easier reads and he wasn’t even able to do those things, by which case since he couldn’t be successful doing that he’d never be able to make a jump to the next tier, or at least not anytime soon.

Well you said he threw him in the fire that's not being thrown in the fire.

I disagree anyway. You play to your QBs strengths and we didn't do that. They weren't easy quick reads they were long developing routes with poor tackle play. Oh yeah, with receivers who couldn't separate or make plays.

Baker still passed up way too many easier throws for the big play and that seems 100% on him but those happen to what I can see on TV maybe a time or two per game so not a huge difference.

It will come out in the wash. No reason to really debate it. We'll see how Baker does at his next stop and how Watson does if Stefanski calls the same plays. Cooper gets better separation than what we had but not so much that we can't compare if the tackles get injured/struggle and pressure gets there.

It will be an interesting watch.

[mtmmike]

mayfield has 4 wins against the afc champs plus he would save us 60 milion

let us see Deshaun beat any afc north team 4 wins in a row.

I rest my case.