Around the League 2022

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

One of the best posts about Dalton Schultz that I've read thus far has came from the hands of a Dallas Cowboys fan himself by the name of @Rtnldave

And I quote him (in bold) word for word.

"Okay, stats be dammed! I'm going to tell you why you pay this man.

He is a PROVEN comfort zone for Dak. If you expect Dak Prescott to lead this team to a SB, he is going to need a lot if help. And this kid has shown that. That's chemistry. That cannot be taught, coached, learned or practiced.

It is an intangible that cannot be quantified.

When you find something like that in any field, it's special. It doesn't happen everyday.

That is just 1 component needed for a championship run. So keep Schultz and you check that box.

That is what you pay him for".

Sorry Jets fans. I'm going to have to take the advice on Dalton Schultz from a Cowboys fan who actually watches both his QB and TE play each and every single Sunday (there's only so much YouTube highlights and box score statistics I can look into as a Jets fan) all while we're too busy watching our Jets play @ 1:00 and/or scouting other AFC teams @ 4:00 etc. 

• It's posts from multiple Dallas fans (such as that one above) that really gets me fired up about the thought of Zach Wilson to Dalton Schultz. 

This man @Rtnldavehas lived through and got to scout the likes of Jason Witten each and every Sunday (for 16-17 consecutive years) and for that reason alone his thoughts on Dalton Schultz isn't to be just taken lightly with a grain of salt. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by DefenseWinsChampionships

[Bobby816]

31 minutes ago, DefenseWinsChampionships said:

Zach Wilson (2020).

Junior.

12 games. 

247/336 (73.5%). 

3,692 Passing Yards. 

11.0 yards per attempt.

33 TDs/3 INTs. 

QB Rating of 196.4 (4th All-Time). 

vs. 

Dak Prescott: (2015). 

Senior. 

13 games. 

316/477 (66.2%).

3,793 passing yards. 

8.0 yards per attempt. 

29 TDs/5 INTs. 

QB Rating of 151.0 (Not even in the top 100 All-Time).

 

✓ I also don't think Dak Prescott would've been Dak Prescott or even looked any good as a Jets QB last year. 

 

Don't underestimate what this kid QB Zach Wilson can do once provided with elite Offensive weapons man (just like Dak) because he didn't become the highest BYU QB drafted since Steve Young and/or only the 3rd BYU Offensive player drafted 1st round since dating back to 1984 and 1998 for nothing.

Provide him with elite Dak Prescott type of Offensive firepower and I'm convinced he'll become even better than Dak himself.

Dak SEC

Zach BYU

Big difference in level of competition. And Zach had plenty of good talent around him that outweighed the weak competition he was against.

I like Zach and think if we do the right moves he can be our guy. But every QBs path is different. For example bc you started it…. Dak wouldn’t have even been given an opportunity on most teams. If he didn’t have a star studded OL his whole career, Elliott and a loaded WR room… I don’t think he’s as good as he is. A lot of x factors shape a QBs career. But DAL made moves to make sure he’d succeed. And eventually they’ll have to trust Dak without those stars around him. Bc a QB can play until they’re 35-40. But and OT, WR and RB can’t.

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

8 minutes ago, ekill08x said:

Completely off topic but @DefenseWinsChampionshipsyou started posting like this week and you legit write essays...how in the actual #$@% do you have 164 posts with how complex you make your posts? 

😆 off work because of Covid I feel fine no symptoms just a little lazy unfortunately the madness comes to an end come Tuesday (I'll still post just not quite as often) but it's been fun taking a mental break from life and talking Jets football.

Glad I found this place reminds me of a basketball forum I found years ago. 

I gotta admit. I'm all statistics out 😆

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

45 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Dak SEC

Zach BYU

Big difference in level of competition. And Zach had plenty of good talent around him that outweighed the weak competition he was against.

How many of his good BYU Offensive talent got drafted last year and/or how many more will get drafted this year?

And I hate this argument because @ the end of the day there's been literally thousands of kids who've played NCAA QB dating back to 1964 (when they began using this same exact QB Rating formula) and at the time of being drafted Zach Wilson ranked #4 All-Time in NCAA QB Rating. And that's saying something (regardless of which school he came from).

Give me the underdog NCAA QB prospect who made his teammates better and who wasn't (SEC) carried by his fully loaded 5 star recruit type of power house offenses any day of the week. 

Steve Young = BYU. 

Patrick Mahomes = Texas Tech. 

Aaron Rodgers = Cal. 

Josh Allen = Wyoming.

Russell Wilson = Wisconsin. 

Drew Brees = Purdue. 

Kirk Cousins = Michigan State. 

Tom Brady = Michigan. 

Tony Romo = Eastern Illinois. 

Philip Rivers = N.C State. 

Matt Ryan = Boston College. 

Kyler Murray = Oklahoma. 

Kurt Warner = Northern Iowa. 

Ben Roethlisberger = Miami Ohio. 

Derek Carr = Fresno State. 

Chad Pennington = Marshall. 

Donovan McNabb = Syracuse. 

Andrew Luck = Stanford. 

Rich Gannon = Delaware.

Dan Marino = Pittsburgh.

Jim Kelly = Miami U. 

Joe Montana = Notre Dame.

 

So freak the "SEC" dude because you know what all 22 of these QBs have in common?

A.) None played within the SEC. 

B.) All rank (to this day) top 50 in All-Time NFL QB Rating. 

 

Steve McNair = Alcorn State.

Mark Brunnell = Washington.

Randall Cunningham = UNLV.

Warren Moon = Washington.

Troy Aikman = Oklahoma.

John Elway = Stanford. 

 

Were all pretty fun for us to watch as non SEC QBs once on an NFL level.

 

✓ And yes I know Joe Namath. Bart Starr.  Archie Manning. Peyton Manning. Eli Manning. Cam Newton. Tim Tebow and now both Joe Burrow and Matthew Stafford were all SEC QBs etc.

 

But what Zach Wilson did @ BYU during his 2020 Junior Year was absolutely incredible and I'll always despise the "SEC" QB talk (and I hope my post above shows you why). 

 

[KingOfNewYork]

DWC how the hell are you putting all this together so fast. 

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

3 minutes ago, KingOfNewYork said:

DWC how the hell are you putting all this together so fast. 

Fast typer + tonight I've had some help my daughter been reading off these stats to me as I've typed (it's Friday so can stay up late as she wants) she's 10 and learning both mathematics and reading through sports (and she don't even know it yet). 

She's playing her Fortnite on PS4 now so I have no more statistical helping hand until next time 🤣

[Bobby816]

26 minutes ago, DefenseWinsChampionships said:

How many of his good BYU Offensive talent got drafted last year and/or how many more will get drafted this year?

And I hate this argument because @ the end of the day there's been literally thousands of kids who've played NCAA QB dating back to 1964 (when they began using this same exact QB Rating formula) and at the time of being drafted Zach Wilson ranked #4 All-Time in NCAA QB Rating. And that's saying something (regardless of which school he came from).

Give me the underdog NCAA QB prospect who made his teammates better and who wasn't (SEC) carried by his fully loaded 5 star recruit type of power house offenses any day of the week. 

Steve Young = BYU. 

Patrick Mahomes = Texas Tech. 

Aaron Rodgers = Cal. 

Josh Allen = Wyoming.

Russell Wilson = Wisconsin. 

Drew Brees = Purdue. 

Kirk Cousins = Michigan State. 

Tom Brady = Michigan. 

Tony Romo = Eastern Illinois. 

Philip Rivers = N.C State. 

Matt Ryan = Boston College. 

Kyler Murray = Oklahoma. 

Kurt Warner = Northern Iowa. 

Ben Roethlisberger = Miami Ohio. 

Derek Carr = Fresno State. 

Chad Pennington = Marshall. 

Donovan McNabb = Syracuse. 

Andrew Luck = Stanford. 

Rich Gannon = Delaware.

Dan Marino = Pittsburgh.

Jim Kelly = Miami U. 

Joe Montana = Notre Dame.

 

So freak the "SEC" dude because you know what all 22 of these QBs have in common?

A.) None played within the SEC. 

B.) All rank (to this day) top 50 in All-Time NFL QB Rating. 

 

Steve McNair = Alcorn State.

Mark Brunnell = Washington.

Randall Cunningham = UNLV.

Warren Moon = Washington.

Troy Aikman = Oklahoma.

John Elway = Stanford. 

 

Were all pretty fun for us to watch as non SEC QBs once on an NFL level.

 

✓ And yes I know Joe Namath. Bart Starr.  Archie Manning. Peyton Manning. Eli Manning. Cam Newton. Tim Tebow and now both Joe Burrow and Matthew Stafford were all SEC QBs etc.

 

But what Zach Wilson did @ BYU during his 2020 Junior Year was absolutely incredible and I'll always despise the "SEC" QB talk (and I hope my post above shows you why). 

 

SEC now is different than the past for starters. You named mostly older QBs. Speaking of… of the like 30 QBs you named, only about a handful of them were at small schools. And I by no means think that where guy went to school means he will be good or not. But I do think an SEC player has an easier adjustment to the NFL than a smaller school guy. Bc he’s facing NFL talent weekly already. Also as a stats guy as you appear, you should know that it’s obvious a guy like Wilson’s stats were inflated bc of where he played. So the stat comparison doesn’t equal out. You wanna compare Wilson’s college stats to Josh Allen? I’ll 100% listen. But you lose me when you compare Wilson’s stats to top tier NCAA teams QBs.

[KingOfNewYork]

23 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

SEC now is different than the past for starters. You named mostly older QBs. Speaking of… of the like 30 QBs you named, only about a handful of them were at small schools. And I by no means think that where guy went to school means he will be good or not. But I do think an SEC player has an easier adjustment to the NFL than a smaller school guy. Bc he’s facing NFL talent weekly already. Also as a stats guy as you appear, you should know that it’s obvious a guy like Wilson’s stats were inflated bc of where he played. So the stat comparison doesn’t equal out. You wanna compare Wilson’s college stats to Josh Allen? I’ll 100% listen. But you lose me when you compare Wilson’s stats to top tier NCAA teams QBs.

SEC Quarterbacks play against the best but also play with the best. It’s like a gift and a curse for some of these guys. Trevor, who played in the ACC, suffered this year because of the later. He was always used to having the best talent around him and when he didn’t he looked rubbish. 

It says a lot that Zach’s best ball came with his worst supporting cast weapons wise because unlike power 5 Quarterbacks he isn’t used to having the best talent around him. Once he adjusted to the speed of the NFL, you seen it click for him. 

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

58 minutes ago, KingOfNewYork said:

SEC Quarterbacks play against the best but also play with the best. It’s like a gift and a curse for some of these guys. Trevor, who played in the ACC, suffered this year because of the later. He was always used to having the best talent around him and when he didn’t he looked rubbish. 

It says a lot that Zach’s best ball came with his worst supporting cast weapons wise because unlike power 5 Quarterbacks he isn’t used to having the best talent around him. Once he adjusted to the speed of the NFL, you seen it click for him. 

Well said which is why so many SEC QBs NFL bust. They were so used to being surrounded by 4-5 Star A+ Recruits (@ every offensive position) to the point of not knowing how to survive once on an even NFL playing field.

Jamarcus Russell (LSU), Tim Tebow (Gators), Johnny Manziel (Texas A&M) and Tim Couch (Kentucky) all come to mind. 

And yeah we all know about current SEC QBs in Joe Burrow (Cincinnati), Matthew Stafford (Rams), Dak Prescott (Cowboys), Tua (Dolphins) and Mac Jones (Patriots) but what about all of these other not-so-good current SEC QBs such as...

1.) Brandon Allen 2016 of Arkansas (Bengals).

2.) Jacoby Brissett 2016 of Gators (Dolphins).

3.) K.J. Costello 2021 of Ole' Miss (Chargers). 

4.) Joshua Dobbs 2017 of Tennessee (Steelers).

5.) Jeff Driskel 2016 of Gators (Texans).

6.) Jacob Eason 2020 of Georgia (Seahawks).

7.) Danny Etling 2018 of LSU (Packers).

8.) Feleipe Franks 2021 of Arkansas/Gators (Falcons). 

9.) Jake Fromm 2020 of Georgia (Giants).

10.) Jalen Hurts 2020 of Alabama (Eagles).

11.) Drew Lock 2019 of Missouri (Broncos).

12.) AJ McCarron 2014 of Alabama (Falcons).

13.) Kellen Mond 2021 of Texas A&M (Vikings).

14.) Kyle Shurmur 2019 of Vandy (Bills).

15.) Jarrett Stidham 2019 of Auburn (Patriots). 

16.) Kyle Trask 2021 of Gators (Buccaneers).

As we can see SEC QBs = extremely overrated because how many of these QBs can you picture becoming All-Pro elite?

And out of these current 21 SEC QBs on NFL rosters; there's only three who I'd truly be excited about building a Football team around in Burrow/Dak/Stafford (and maybe Mac Jones).

There are only 7 offensive BYU players in the NFL right now (including Zach Wilson) and outside of Taysom Hill (undrafted) I don't have any idea who any of them are. I just looked one up. His #1 2020 BYU receiver a guy named Dax Milne who did absolutely nothingness as a 2021 rookie 13 games, 9 catches, 83 yards and 0 TDs but yet he was Zach Wilson's "#1" WR @ BYU?

And that's what makes Zach Wilson's 2020 Junior year @ BYU so special. 4th Highest Single Season NCAA QB Rating of All-Time. He defined and overcame the odds (stacked up against him). He damn near hawked generational prospect Trevor Lawrence down and got drafted #2 overall. Becoming the highest drafted player in BYU history outside of Steve Young (#1 overall) dating back to 1984 of 38 years ago; that's incredible. 

[Bobby816]

8 hours ago, KingOfNewYork said:

SEC Quarterbacks play against the best but also play with the best. It’s like a gift and a curse for some of these guys. Trevor, who played in the ACC, suffered this year because of the later. He was always used to having the best talent around him and when he didn’t he looked rubbish. 

It says a lot that Zach’s best ball came with his worst supporting cast weapons wise because unlike power 5 Quarterbacks he isn’t used to having the best talent around him. Once he adjusted to the speed of the NFL, you seen it click for him. 

Except he had a very good OL (I believe it was a top 5 OL in NCAA), RB (Allegier is a top 5ish RB this draft) and decent receiving options (Milne got drafted by WAS and even got some playing time this last year and Rex will be one of the top TEs next draft) . BYU had more offensive talent than any defense they pretty much played.

[Bobby816]

7 hours ago, DefenseWinsChampionships said:

Well said which is why so many SEC QBs NFL bust. They were so used to being surrounded by 4-5 Star A+ Recruits (@ every offensive position) to the point of not knowing how to survive once on an even NFL playing field.

Jamarcus Russell (LSU), Tim Tebow (Gators), Johnny Manziel (Texas A&M) and Tim Couch (Kentucky) all come to mind. 

And yeah we all know about current SEC QBs in Joe Burrow (Cincinnati), Matthew Stafford (Rams), Dak Prescott (Cowboys), Tua (Dolphins) and Mac Jones (Patriots) but what about all of these other not-so-good current SEC QBs such as...

1.) Brandon Allen 2016 of Arkansas (Bengals).

2.) Jacoby Brissett 2016 of Gators (Dolphins).

3.) K.J. Costello 2021 of Ole' Miss (Chargers). 

4.) Joshua Dobbs 2017 of Tennessee (Steelers).

5.) Jeff Driskel 2016 of Gators (Texans).

6.) Jacob Eason 2020 of Georgia (Seahawks).

7.) Danny Etling 2018 of LSU (Packers).

8.) Feleipe Franks 2021 of Arkansas/Gators (Falcons). 

9.) Jake Fromm 2020 of Georgia (Giants).

10.) Jalen Hurts 2020 of Alabama (Eagles).

11.) Drew Lock 2019 of Missouri (Broncos).

12.) AJ McCarron 2014 of Alabama (Falcons).

13.) Kellen Mond 2021 of Texas A&M (Vikings).

14.) Kyle Shurmur 2019 of Vandy (Bills).

15.) Jarrett Stidham 2019 of Auburn (Patriots). 

16.) Kyle Trask 2021 of Gators (Buccaneers).

As we can see SEC QBs = extremely overrated because how many of these QBs can you picture becoming All-Pro elite?

And out of these current 21 SEC QBs on NFL rosters; there's only three who I'd truly be excited about building a Football team around in Burrow/Dak/Stafford (and maybe Mac Jones).

There are only 7 offensive BYU players in the NFL right now (including Zach Wilson) and outside of Taysom Hill (undrafted) I don't have any idea who any of them are. I just looked one up. His #1 2020 BYU receiver a guy named Dax Milne who did absolutely nothingness as a 2021 rookie 13 games, 9 catches, 83 yards and 0 TDs but yet he was Zach Wilson's "#1" WR @ BYU?

And that's what makes Zach Wilson's 2020 Junior year @ BYU so special. 4th Highest Single Season NCAA QB Rating of All-Time. He defined and overcame the odds (stacked up against him). He damn near hawked generational prospect Trevor Lawrence down and got drafted #2 overall. Becoming the highest drafted player in BYU history outside of Steve Young (#1 overall) dating back to 1984 of 38 years ago; that's incredible. 

Not a single one of those guys you mentioned were “supposed to be” franchise QBs. Maybe I view it wrong. But for me if a guy is drafted in Round 1 a team thinks that guy should be a franchise QB. So I’m not taking a 3rd round SEC QB and viewing him as a failure. Also keep in mind I’m using the SEC as an example bc that’s the highest level of competition with the most NFL talent team to team. I can use a conference like the Big 10 or 12 as well. Guys playing for bigger schools are just more NFL ready. That doesn’t mean that they will be better than the smaller school guy. It just means they’re more ready. And Zach pretty much proved that last year. Look at his stats before his injury to after his injury. There was clearly a learning curve for him. Which a lot of us expected. Which is OK. Bc I knew it wa a going to be rough for him to go from BYU to the NFL.

[xrade]

56 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Guys playing for bigger schools are just more NFL ready. That doesn’t mean that they will be better than the smaller school guy

Well stated. You and I debated this point last year so I will not rehash nor pile on.  I can see why Power 5 schools can produce more NFL ready players but I just don’t understand the high bust rate of QB’s. Logic would dictate Bama and OSU schools would produce more NFL QB’s, yet they consistently bust. Jury is still out on Tua, Fields and McCorkle.

Could it be because they were surrounded by NFL talent that they show their true colors when going to a less than stellar NFL team?  This infers the O they played in at college hid their deficiencies.  Now you look at non power 5 QB’s and apply that same logic. They can’t hide their deficiencies because they are not playing with top talent around them. You see a more “true” version of what you can expect from them. Zach at BYU was a good downfield passer. How was his short game at BYU?

I think, in the end, it all comes down to NFL coaching and patience. The GM has to trust his scouting reports and dig deep to decide where to draft the QB and not feel pressured to draft the next shiny new toy to save his ***. Zach should not have started this year, at least not right away. Nor do I think any rookie QB should start. I can’t help but think that given the patience, time, coaching and support that those Bama and OSU FRP QB’s could have had a decent NFL career. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by xrade

[Bobby816]

50 minutes ago, xrade said:

Well stated. You and I debated this point last year so I will not rehash nor pile on.  I can see why Power 5 schools can produce more NFL ready players but I just don’t understand the high bust rate of QB’s. Logic would dictate Bama and OSU schools would produce more NFL QB’s, yet they consistently bust. Jury is still out on Tua, Fields and McCorkle.

Could it be because they were surrounded by NFL talent that they show their true colors when going to a less than stellar NFL team?  This infers the O they played in at college hid their deficiencies.  Now you look at non power 5 QB’s and apply that same logic. They can’t hide their deficiencies because they are not playing with top talent around them. You see a more “true” version of what you can expect from them. Zach at BYU was a good downfield passer. How was his short game at BYU?

I think, in the end, it all comes down to NFL coaching and patience. The GM has to trust his scouting reports and dig deep to decide where to draft the QB and not feel pressured to draft the next shiny new toy to save his ***. Zach should not have started this year, at least not right away. Nor do I think any rookie QB should start. I can’t help but think that given the patience, time, coaching and support that those Bama and OSU FRP QB’s could have had a decent NFL career. 

Agreed. My point is that I’m not saying that every SEC QB is an NFL player, never mind a franchise QB. But who recently has been a high level SEC QB that was drafted high? Jones, Burrow, Tua, Newton and Stafford. And they’ve all had decent careers I’d say. 

[xrade]

4 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

Agreed. My point is that I’m not saying that every SEC QB is an NFL player, never mind a franchise QB. But who recently has been a high level SEC QB that was drafted high? Jones, Burrow, Tua, Newton and Stafford. And they’ve all had decent careers I’d say. 

All I got is Haskins. Jones and Tua decent careers?

[JetsandI]

1 hour ago, xrade said:

All I got is Haskins. Jones and Tua decent careers?

What is the difference between Haskins and Newton? lol.

 

Anyway, SEC qbs don't guarantee anything.