Vegas wanted Mack back

[soulman]

9 hours ago, WindyCity said:

For 2x 1st round picks… done

Then what?  Pace drafts one pre-injured OT and a big, tall, fast WR who only knows one route and can't stay healthy.

I'd rather have all of their 3rd-5th round picks for the next three years.  We'd be far better off.

Tell me why you would be so anxious to trade the one generational talent this team has?

Edited August 24, 2021 by soulman

[abstract_thought]

7 hours ago, soulman said:

Then what?  Pace drafts one pre-injured OT and a big, tall, fast WR who only knows one route and can't stay healthy.

I'd rather have all of their 3rd-5th round picks for the next three years.  We'd be far better off.

Tell me why you would be so anxious to trade the one generational talent this team has?

Because his cap number is going to make it impossible to keep him around much longer and restructuring his contract into his late 30s seems like an awful idea.

He’s an amazing player. But the Bears’ timeline has now changed and Mack doesn’t fit it.

[soulman]

42 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Because his cap number is going to make it impossible to keep him around much longer and restructuring his contract into his late 30s seems like an awful idea.

He’s an amazing player. But the Bears’ timeline has now changed and Mack doesn’t fit it.

Not true.  Look at his contract and his cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/khalil-mack-14414/

Next year (2022) is the worst of it and then his cap numbers decline.  Anyway you want to look at it we're gonna have him through 2022 and those future cap hits are only as high as they are because of the restructuring Pace and Laine did this year.  That reduced his 2021 cap by roughly $12 mil over what it was in 2020.  That money doesn't just disappear so most of it ends up in the 2022 and 2023 cap when overall the cap will be much higher than it is now.  IIRC the 2022 cap will be $208.6 mil and the projections for 2023 are $220-$225 mil range minimum, 2024 maybe $250 mil.

Now look at Justin Fields contract and his cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/justin-fields-72391/

His current contract also runs through 2024 which is why you can afford both your best defender and the guy we hope will be our best offensive player at the same time.  This is now our Super Bowl window, 2021-2024, because by 2025 if he's successful Fields will have a contract that averages close to $50 mil per year if not more.  Mahomes is already getting $45 mil year per now and Josh Allen $43 mil.  Even if somehow Fields doesn't become a top five QB by 2025 we'd still be looking at numbers in the $35-$40 mil per year range.  The window is open, the time is now.

It gets a little annoying when I read or hear someone say we can't afford Mack, his cap hit is too high, without first delving into the facts.  Already Mack's highest paid edge defender in the NFL contract has been topped Myles Garrett and Joey Bosa and others will eventually top those by a wide margin and this is the reason why. Players cap costs can only be evaluated correctly relative to the overall cap which will sky rocket soon.

The N.F.L. signed new media rights agreements with CBS, NBC, Fox, ESPN and Amazon collectively worth about $110 billion over 11 years, nearly doubling the value of its previous contracts. The contracts, which will take effect in 2023 and run through the 2033 season, will cement the N.F.L.’s status as the country’s most lucrative sports league.

[abstract_thought]

39 minutes ago, soulman said:

Not true.  Look at his contract and his cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/khalil-mack-14414/

Next year (2022) is the worst of it and then his cap numbers decline.  Anyway you want to look at it we're gonna have him through 2022 and those future cap hits are only as high as they are because of the restructuring Pace and Laine did this year.  That reduced his 2021 cap by roughly $12 mil over what it was in 2020.  That money doesn't just disappear so most of it ends up in the 2022 and 2023 cap when overall the cap will be much higher than it is now.  IIRC the 2022 cap will be $208.6 mil and the projections for 2023 are $220-$225 mil range minimum, 2024 maybe $250 mil.

Now look at Justin Fields contract and his cap.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-bears/justin-fields-72391/

His current contract also runs through 2024 which is why you can afford both your best defender and the guy we hope will be our best offensive player at the same time.  This is now our Super Bowl window, 2021-2024, because by 2025 if he's successful Fields will have a contract that averages close to $50 mil per year if not more.  Mahomes is already getting $45 mil year per now and Josh Allen $43 mil.  Even if somehow Fields doesn't become a top five QB by 2025 we'd still be looking at numbers in the $35-$40 mil per year range.  The window is open, the time is now.

It gets a little annoying when I read or hear someone say we can't afford Mack, his cap hit is too high, without first delving into the facts.  Already Mack's highest paid edge defender in the NFL contract has been topped Myles Garrett and Joey Bosa and others will eventually top those by a wide margin and this is the reason why. Players cap costs can only be evaluated correctly relative to the overall cap which will sky rocket soon.

The N.F.L. signed new media rights agreements with CBS, NBC, Fox, ESPN and Amazon collectively worth about $110 billion over 11 years, nearly doubling the value of its previous contracts. The contracts, which will take effect in 2023 and run through the 2033 season, will cement the N.F.L.’s status as the country’s most lucrative sports league.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2022/cap-hit/

He has a top 10 cap hit in 2022 and while it declines slightly, it doesn't get much better in '23 and '24.

The issue with comparing him to Garrett and Bosa is that those guys are significantly younger and will never see the expensive years of their contracts. Their teams will stretch the contracts out via restructuring just like the Bears did with Mack. But Mack's contract can no longer be stretched out unless you want to pay him huge money when he's 35 and 36 years old.

Bears need relief from his deal to build the roster. They traded away several picks. The way you build from here is to shed veterans, accumulate picks, and get salary flexibility for 2-3 years from now.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying the Bears can't find a way to make his cap number fit under the cap ceiling. It's more my opinion that they can build a better team without him than with him, despite his great talents as a player.

Edited August 24, 2021 by abstract_thought

[dll2000]

20 hours ago, WindyCity said:

For 2x 1st round picks… done

Agreed.  That would be ideal to have gotten some good years of service and recoup the draft picks.  

I would have jumped on that had it been offered.   I say that not looking at whatever dead cap ramifications though.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

NEVER trade a once in a generation talent in their prime.

[soulman]

5 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Bears need relief from his deal to build the roster.

And I believe that while Fields is still on his rookie deal and because we will also be shedding other higher cap guys who aren't earning their keep, that and an ever increasing cap will keep him affordable with his current contract.  I'm not predicting whether he will or won't finish out his deal or maybe even get extended but I am predicting he won't prove to be too expensive to keep provided he can continue to play at a high level.  If he does keep playing at that level his age won't be an issue.  There are quite a few top pass rushers who have played well into their 30s and productively.

If Pace or whoever may replace him if he's no longer here can continue to keep finding core talent to build with in the middle rounds Macks deal isn't gonna keep us from doing that.  While a $26-$30 mil cap hit may look like a lot now it won't two years from now when other teams are looking at those kind of numbers and even higher for their QBs and top talent at other positions.  Yes you can restructure deals to spread cap costs out but those costs never disappear.  Eventually they will hit the cap or you lose the player as we did by releasing Kyle Fuller to pay for Andy Dalton.

Mack's deal isn't a problem  What Pace needs to stop doing is handing out stupid amounts of guaranteed money speculating on UFA like Robert Quinn based on one years resurgence and pay the guys on our own roster like ARob who've earned far more consideration than Quinn got. Pace's failures in FA have often canceled out his successes.  But back to the core debate here.  I believe Khalil Mack should have a spot on the Bears roster for as long as he remains a productive OLB.  Like a Brian Urlacher he's a generational talent and you don't just cast those guys off early.

Edited August 24, 2021 by soulman

[soulman]

 

Sources: Raiders called the Bears ahead of free agency to ask about a Khalil Mack reunion

By Vic Tafur Aug 23, 2021 157

Jon Gruden wants to win, and there have been times the past three non-winning seasons where the Raiders coach has been clearly miserable. He himself said that he cried for three days after trading former NFL defensive player of the year Khalil Mack just before the start of his return season in 2018.

The Raiders have had a glaring need for a proven pass rusher since trading Mack to the Chicago Bears nearly three years ago and when free agency opened in March, they targeted and planned to sign Yannick Ngakoue. 

But before they did, they made a phone call, league sources said. 

Would the Bears be interested at all in trading Mack back to the Raiders?

The Bears had significant salary-cap issues — which forced them to release All-Pro cornerback Kyle Fuller and restructure several contracts — and the Raiders thought it was worth a shot. The Bears were not interested, sources said, and the Raiders went ahead and signed Ngakoue to a two-year, $26 million contract. 

Raiders officials had no comment, as they don’t talk about trade offers given or received, not even the most interesting ones.

Gruden faced a media backlash when he traded Mack for a bunch of draft picks, including two first-rounders, nine days before the 2018 season opener, and it says a lot about his tunnel vision for the playoffs that he wouldn’t care about what people would say about him trading to reacquire Mack. 

Mack and Gruden never talked during the star pass rusher’s holdout in 2018 as he sought an extension rather than play on the fifth-year option on his rookie contract. The two did seemingly bury the hatchet in a phone call during a 2019 Senior Bowl dinner between Gruden and Mack’s agent Joel Segal. 

“I’m not going to get into all the drama,” Gruden said in London in 2019 the week before the Raiders played Mack’s Bears. “We wanted to sign Mack, OK? We didn’t want to trade him. I wish him the best.”

Gruden said that the Raiders “waited and waited” for Mack to end his holdout and that the offer the team made him ahead of the start of the league year in March 2018 “wasn’t anywhere close” to what the Bears gave him. 

Upon completing the trade, the Bears quickly signed Mack to a six-year, $141 million contract extension. He’s entering his fourth season with Chicago and, after restructuring his contract this offseason to help the Bears free up cap space, he has a cap hit this season of $14.6 million (the cap hit jumps to over $30 million next season).

Mack clearly was frustrated that the Raiders decided to extend quarterback Derek Carr and guard Gabe Jackson’s contracts — both fellow 2014 draft picks — before taking care of him. And they spent their 2018 budget on other players, leaving them enough cap space to only afford the $13.8 million that Mack was due to make on his fifth-year option.

“From that point on, (Mack) would not talk to anyone in our organization,” owner Mark Davis told ESPN in November 2018. “Not (general manager) Reggie (McKenzie), not Jon, not anybody. … Everybody thinks that Jon’s the one who wanted to get rid of him. Jon wanted him badly.”

Mack has never given his side of the story, preferring to move on.

“You could say I’m suppressing the emotional side,” Mack said before that game in London in 2019. “But the other side is to go out and make them pay for it.”

That didn’t happen in that game. The Bears lost to the Raiders, 24-21, as Gruden’s offense often double-teamed Mack and he didn’t have an impact on the game. Running back Josh Jacobs — the best player the Raiders got back in the Mack trade — scored two touchdowns. The coach danced in the locker room after the game, saying “that’s the most fun I’ve ever had.”

That 2019 game was a scheduled home game for the Raiders and would’ve meant Mack’s return to the Oakland Coliseum if it weren’t instead scheduled for London. The Bears are scheduled to play the Raiders this season in Las Vegas in Week 5.

The Raiders received the Bears’ 2019 first-round pick, which they used on Jacobs, and their first-rounder in 2020 (backup cornerback Damon Arnette). They also received a 2019 sixth-round pick that they traded away and a 2020 third-round pick they used on wide receiver Bryan Edwards. In addition to Mack, the Bears received the Raiders’ 2020 second-round pick (tight end Cole Kmet) and a 2020 seventh-round pick (offensive lineman Arlington Hambright).

Jacobs made the Pro Bowl last season and has 2,215 yards rushing and 19 touchdowns in two seasons, while Mack has 30 sacks, 29 tackles for loss, 14 forced fumbles and 45 quarterbacks hits in 46 games in three seasons in Chicago.

More than the draft picks acquired, Gruden used to say how important the money saved on Mack was. And while the Raiders used that money to sign tackle Trent Brown, safety Lamarcus Joyner, receiver Tyrell Williams, linebacker Vontaze Burfict and to trade for and sign receiver Antonio Brown, those moves didn’t work out. 

Gruden and the Raiders, though, will always have the Alpha Award for “best sports transaction of the year” from the 2018 Sloan Sports Analytics Conference (the trophy used to reside on Gruden’s desk before the move from Oakland to Las Vegas).

The Raiders are extremely pleased with Ngakoue thus far, as he came into training camp bulked up and immediately assumed a leadership role.

But many fans, players and head coaches apparently still hold a soft spot in their hearts for Mack. 

“Khalil is one of my best friends, he is someone I talk to weekly,” Carr told the “Cris Collinsworth Podcast” in June. “He is just a great guy. It goes back to when we got drafted. When he got traded, I couldn’t believe it. Because the way it was set up, the way I did my contract, the way we set it up, the way Gabe Jackson did his, we were setting it up to where cap-wise, it would be easy to bring Khalil in. 

“But … it didn’t end up working out, for whatever reasons I hope to know someday. It didn’t work out. But I know one thing is that I would welcome Khalil back anyway. He is a superstar talent and he is one of the best people in the world.”

Mack, 30, is a free agent in 2025. 

[BearsFanForever]

No thanks.  52 is one of my favorite Jerseys that I own.

[HuskieBear]

2 hours ago, BearsFanForever said:

No thanks.  52 is one of my favorite Jerseys that I own.

its settled then, we wont trade mack

[Heinz D.]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:53 PM, soulman said:

Then what?  Pace drafts one pre-injured OT and a big, tall, fast WR who only knows one route and can't stay healthy.

You can't shy away from the that trade because of what you're afraid Pace will do in the aftermath. 

Yes, Pace should have been fired...but he wasn't. So, you have to make the best out of what you're dealt. 

On 8/24/2021 at 12:12 PM, JAF-N72EX said:

NEVER trade a once in a generation talent in their prime.

We're talking NFL. Thirty is not at all necessarily "in their prime". 

[soulman]

7 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

You can't shy away from the that trade because of what you're afraid Pace will do in the aftermath. 

Yes, Pace should have been fired...but he wasn't. So, you have to make the best out of what you're dealt. 

We're talking NFL. Thirty is not at all necessarily "in their prime". 

If you look at the list of NFL pass rushers who've been productive well into their 30s I would argue that Mack is still very much in his prime.

Irregardless of Pace's track record with his top draft picks I would not trade Khalil Mack for love nor money.  He is one of a handful at most of NFL players who has to be accounted for every game usually with double and triple team blocking yet he can still defeat that most of the time.  If anything he's an exception to the rule and an intense professional competitor. 

Gimme a whole team full of 30 year old Khalil Macks and I'll bring you a Lombardi Trophy.

[Heinz D.]

15 hours ago, soulman said:

If you look at the list of NFL pass rushers who've been productive well into their 30s I would argue that Mack is still very much in his prime.

I haven't given up on Mack. But, after two sub-par seasons (for him), and you're setting about trying the franchise quarterback thing all over again, with a salary cap that's tilted heavily towards the defense...if Vegas gives you two first round picks and cap relief, I think you have to take it. @WindyCityis 100% correct.

But I'd imagine that was a hypothetical on his part, anyway. I highly doubt Vegas offered us that...

[soulman]

55 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

I haven't given up on Mack. But, after two sub-par seasons (for him), and you're setting about trying the franchise quarterback thing all over again, with a salary cap that's tilted heavily towards the defense...if Vegas gives you two first round picks and cap relief, I think you have to take it. @WindyCityis 100% correct.

But I'd imagine that was a hypothetical on his part, anyway. I highly doubt Vegas offered us that...

I don't know that I'd call Mack out for having two sub par seasons.  That's far too stats related for me.

The pure fact that teams consistently need to have two and at times even three guys blocking him opens up opportunities for others.  In the NHL parlance he would at least get assists credited to him for others sacks and pressures.  Mack is still a major defensive force and will be for quite awhile yet IMHO.

Teams who trade players like Mack are either in salary cap hell because of other deals (we are not) or they're beginning a complete tear down and rebuild like the Cubbies and need top picks to do it.  Both were where LV was at when they traded Mack to us.  It hurt them and they know it too.  Now "Chucky" would like a mulligan on it and take it all back.  So no.  No can do.

This is my opinion on it.

Edited August 31, 2021 by soulman

[Heinz D.]

11 minutes ago, soulman said:

I don't know that I'd call Mack out for having two sub par seasons.  That's far too stats related for me.

The pure fact that teams consistently need to have two and at times even three guys blocking him opens up opportunities for others.  In the NHL parlance he would at least get an assists credited to him for others sacks and pressures.  Mack is still a major defensive force and will be for quite awhile yet IMHO.

Teams who trade players like Mack are either in salary cap hell because of other deals (we are not) or they're beginning a complete tear down and rebuild like the Cubbies and need top picks to do it.  Both were where LV was at when they traded Mack to us.  It hurt them and they know it too.  Now "Chucky" would like a mulligan on it and take it all back.  So no.  No can do.

This is my opinion on it.

Well, if you think he's untradeable, that's fine. 

Two first rounders and cap relief would make up for that sentiment, with me. But it's not gonna happen...so it's all merely a thought experiment.