The "I forgot to make a thread" Week 10 Thread: 2-6 WFT vs 6-2 Tompa Bay (SIMPSONS GIF WEEK MANIA)

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, offbyone said:

Cmon, people like that exist?

I mean I get not being on the Heinicke bandwagon, but Kyle Allen?   For what purpose?  

Well as I and others have explained for a month. If Heinicke continues to have months where he’s throwing twice as many ints as TDs, he missing ints and playing below average I’d like to see Kyle Allen to see if he can do better.

If Heinicke has another month like he had in October we’re going to be 3-9 or or 3-10 in December, by that time we will have known exactly what Heinicke is - not that we don’t already - and if that’s our record in December, I’d like to see Kyle Allen get a chance to see if he can improve upon what he did last October before he broke his ankle. He wasn’t awful, he was pretty efficient, showed mobility, showed off a good arm at times and presumably he would only get better the more he played. I don’t think he’s the answer either but you really don’t know until the guys play extended periods of time. 

[Scott Land]

Here is my two cents from this game. TH played his best game of his career. It may not be his best statistical game, but it was his best game he's played in the NFL. The offense and defense finally both played well in the same game. The first 4 games, the offense played well and the defense played like ****. The last 4 games the defense started to play better but the offense was non-existent. Joey Slye actually making kicks was absolutely huge. Besides the facemask and Fuller getting burnt (questionable no call but nothing new), the secondary actually looked good for a change, and can hopefully build off it. Jon Allen and Daron Payne are going to start getting a lot more attention so hopefully JSW and Toohill can step up on the edge. It's too bad we blew multiple games early because this could potentially be the same turn around we had last year. 

[offbyone]

4 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Well as I and others have explained for a month. If Heinicke continues to have months where he’s throwing twice as many ints as TDs, he missing ints and playing below average I’d like to see Kyle Allen to see if he can do better.

If Heinicke has another month like he had in October we’re going to be 3-9 or or 3-10 in December, by that time we will have known exactly what Heinicke is - not that we don’t already - and if that’s our record in December, I’d like to see Kyle Allen get a chance to see if he can improve upon what he did last October before he broke his ankle. He wasn’t awful, he was pretty efficient, showed mobility, showed off a good arm at times and presumably he would only get better the more he played. I don’t think he’s the answer either but you really don’t know until the guys play extended periods of time. 

To me that represents change for the sake of change.  It would be equivalent to cutting Hopkins for Blewitt.  I get it if Rivera is losing the locker room, but at least at the end of this season we will have no questions about what Heinicke is.  I kind of think we established what Kyle Allen is and that may have even been established before he came to washington.  We can go to him, but he definitely has no long term future as QB1.  

Heinicke was impressive yesterday, but if he wants to be considered a real viable option for the future he needs to show that he can do that consistently and do so despite the ups and downs of the defense.

[RSkinGM]

9 minutes ago, offbyone said:

To me that represents change for the sake of change.  It would be equivalent to cutting Hopkins for Blewitt.  I get it if Rivera is losing the locker room, but at least at the end of this season we will have no questions about what Heinicke is.  I kind of think we established what Kyle Allen is and that may have even been established before he came to washington.  We can go to him, but he definitely has no long term future as QB1.  

Heinicke was impressive yesterday, but if he wants to be considered a real viable option for the future he needs to show that he can do that consistently and do so despite the ups and downs of the defense.

Kyle Allen has 17 starts - so about ONE season but we know all there is to know about his game . Whatever .

[offbyone]

40 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Kyle Allen has 17 starts - so about ONE season but we know all there is to know about his game . Whatever .

That is my feeling.  While it was with different teams, it was still in the same offense.  He was fine, but I think he is a backup.  Heinicke may also be a backup but we might as well see more.

[turtle28]

45 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Kyle Allen has 17 starts - so about ONE season but we know all there is to know about his game . Whatever .

Which means in terms of starting NFL Games he would only be going into his 2nd season. Would you give up on a QB we had drafted & had been starting after just one season?

Also, the caveat here that people are glossing over or I guess just don’t care about is that the only way I’d make the change is if Heinicke was playing like one of the worst QBs in the league the rest of the month, which I think is unlikely but, I didn’t think he’d play so awful last month either.

[RSkinGM]

1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

Which means in terms of starting NFL Games he would only be going into his 2nd season. Would you give up on a QB we had drafted & had been starting after just one season?

Also, the caveat here that people are glossing over or I guess just don’t care about is that the only way I’d make the change is if Heinicke was playing like one of the worst QBs in the league the rest of the month, which I think is unlikely but, I didn’t think he’d play so awful last month either.

Maybe my saracasm didn't come through ! That's exactly what I meant - 17 games is a small sample .

[turtle28]

2 minutes ago, offbyone said:

That is my feeling.  While it was with different teams, it was still in the same offense.  He was fine, but I think he is a backup.  Heinicke may also be a backup but we might as well see more.

One, I just want to make this absolutely clear that I would only consider this change if Heinicke was playing like one of the worst QBs in the league for a month, which I don’t expect, but I didn’t expect him to play so awful in October either.

Also, the clear difference between wanting to see what Allen would have if Heinicke plays awful vs wanting to continue to see Heinicke play awful - if he does the next month - would be to evaluate Kyle Allen and where he is currently. 
 

We’ve only seen Kyle Allen play 1 preseason game all season & that was with our 3rd team guys & guys who didn’t even make our roster vs the Ravens starters and top back ups most of that preseason game.

So, we’ve see Heinicke play the Carolina game last year, the Tampa playoff game last year and then the first 9 Games of this season. We have a much firmer grip on what Heinicke is at the moment than we do Kyle Allen who’s 3 years younger and hasn’t started a regular season game in now over a year.

Also, just to reiterate for the 100th time, I wouldn’t make this switch if Heinicke continues to play average or better, I’d only make the change if he plays like a bottom of the league starter like last the previous 4 games before yesterday.

I do love Heinicke, I would like to point out that he’s on pace to have a very good season. If he plays the way he’s capable of the last 8 weeks of the season then his stats at the end of the year could be this:

 66%, 4131 yds, 23 TDs & 15 ints

Plus, he’s on pace for 500 yards rushing and 2 TDs. Now if we ran some read option or QB draws w/him in the Redzone he could get over 5 TDs rushing this year, but it doesn’t seem that Ron/Scotty want to run the read option with him bc they’re treating him with kid gloves.

[turtle28]

15 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Maybe my saracasm didn't come through ! That's exactly what I meant - 17 games is a small sample .

Also, I would say that technically we did something similar to drafting Kyle Allen bc we traded a 5th round pick to acquire him.

[offbyone]

36 minutes ago, RSkinGM said:

Maybe my saracasm didn't come through ! That's exactly what I meant - 17 games is a small sample .

No it came through perfectly!  Small sample, but rarely do qbs who aren't drafted high get more of a chance than that.  Obviously, Zach Wilson will be getting more.  The world isn't fair, but that is it.  

I think it does say everything though that the same coaching staff who apparently loved him enough to trade for him after their previous experience would rather see Heinicke.

[Slappy Mc]

The necessity for a QB controversy with this fan base is crazy strong. 

I said it before the season, Fitzpatrick was supposed to be our stopgap to finding our QBotF. My hope was that Heinicke (or Allen for that matter) would show enough to "take" the starting gig.

That didnt happen. Fitz was going to be the unquestioned starter until he got hurt. Allen was never mentioned to battle with Heinicke. A very clear message about the pecking order from the staff's point of view. 

Now here is what I will say about the QB room going forward. Neither Heinicke or Allen are the QBotF. That much is obvious from what has transpired this year. (I can already hear, but we havent seen Allen play) We saw all we needed to from Allen last year. There is a reason that a guy came off the street and usurped him as the #2, it wasnt because of injury. It's because Heinicke is a better QB. 

Heinicke should and will be the starting QB of this team for the rest of the year, for better or worse. Some can disagree, but if the month of October wasnt enough to get Heinicke pulled, it should be apparent how the staff views the QB situation. 

I cant say I'm not pulling for Heinicke to do well, but his limits are obvious. He can play and can win in this league, but at the end of the day, I think he is a solid QB2, kind of like Ryan Fitzpatrick. 

We will have to find the QBotF by any means necessary this offseason. It's a double edge sword winning games like yesterday. Ruined our early draft position that could be used as capital trade value or used to draft a QB they like (yes I've seen the QBs coming out, doesnt change the fact there will be QBs overdrafted because of need). 

Taylor Heinicke is our stopgap. Nothing more, nothing less. He is also exciting to watch at times. With all the negative swirling around this franchise, having an underdog to root for gives us a reason to pay attention. 

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Scott Land said:

Here is my two cents from this game. TH played his best game of his career. It may not be his best statistical game, but it was his best game he's played in the NFL. The offense and defense finally both played well in the same game. The first 4 games, the offense played well and the defense played like ****. The last 4 games the defense started to play better but the offense was non-existent. Joey Slye actually making kicks was absolutely huge. Besides the facemask and Fuller getting burnt (questionable no call but nothing new), the secondary actually looked good for a change, and can hopefully build off it. Jon Allen and Daron Payne are going to start getting a lot more attention so hopefully JSW and Toohill can step up on the edge. It's too bad we blew multiple games early because this could potentially be the same turn around we had last year. 

Well we could finish this year how we finished last year but not make the playoffs bc the Cowboys have Dak and we won’t win the division. We could end up being 7-10 and miss out on the playoffs bc Dallas ends up having anywhere from 10 to 12 wins.

[turtle28]

@Slappy McIt’s not a QB controversy if Heinicke plays well. I don’t want a controversy, but if the guy who is starting doesn’t play well for an extended amount of time - which I hope doesn’t happen again, but did happen in October, you should go to his back up to see what he can do. It only becomes a controversy over the next month if Heinicke plays poorly.
 

At that point we would have 3 or 4 games left, be out of the playoff chase and should want to start playing our younger players more to evaluate them for next season and, I would put Kyle Allen (25) into that evaluation bucket just like I would Jarrett Patterson, Jon Bates, Dyami Brown, Dax Milne, Khaleke Hudson, Tim Settle, Shaka Toney, Danny Johnson and Darrick Forrest.

Lastly, while I really don’t this will be the case, we don’t know if Kyle Allen could be the QB of the Future or not. What you’re leaving out of your post is that Kyle Allen only finished 3 games last year bc of his broken ankle. That’s not a big enough sample size for us to know what he could be as a starter. 
 

Also, don’t forget that Rivera/Scotty wanted to start Allen the rest of last season after Haskins was benched and they thought he’d lead us to the division title too just like Alex did. I mean they did trade a 5th for Allen after all, he’s not just some nobody to them.

Lastly, you’re leaving out a very, very key detail in your posts. Kyle Allen didn’t have an off-season to compete for the starting job w/ Fitz & Heinicke bc he was rehabbing his broken ankle. So, let’s not act like Kyle Allen had the same opportunity as Heinicke did this summer to win the job vs Fitz, bc Allen didn’t as he was rehabbing from his broken ankle.

Edited November 15, 2021 by turtle28

[Slappy Mc]

18 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

@Slappy McIt’s not a QB controversy if Heinicke plays well. I don’t want a controversy, but if the guy who is starting doesn’t play well for an extended amount of time - which I hope doesn’t happen again, but did happen in October, you should go to his back up to see what he can do. It only becomes a controversy over the next month if Heinicke proves that he’s definitely not the answer and is only back up worthy.
 

At that point we would have 3 or 4 games left, be out of the playoff chase and should want to start playing our younger players more to evaluate them for next season and, I would put Kyle Allen into that evaluation bucket just like I would Jarrett Patterson, Jon Bates, Dyami Brown, Dax Milne, Khaleke Hudson, Tim Settle, Shaka Toney, Danny Johnson and Darrick Forrest.

Lastly, while I really don’t this will be the case, we don’t know if Kyle Allen could be the QB of the Future or not. What you’re leaving out of your post is that Kyle Allen only finished 3 games last year bc of his broken ankle. That’s not a big enough sample size for us to know what he could be as a starter. 
 

Also, don’t forget that Rivera/Scotty wanted to start him the rest of last season after Haskins was benched and they thought he’d lead us to the division title too just like Alex did. I mean they did trade a 5th for Allen after all, he’s not just some nobody to them.

Lastly, you’re leaving out a very, very key detail in your posts, that Allen didn’t have an off-season to compete for the starting job w/ Fitz & Heinicke bc he was rehabbing his broken ankle. So, let’s not act like Kyle Allen had the same opportunity as Heinicke did this summer to win the job vs Fitz, bc Allen didn’t as he was rehabbing from his broken ankle.

Your first paragraph: To anyone that has input in the decision making for this team, there is no QB controversy. To the fans, on this forum and around the globe, there will ALWAYS be a QB controversy until we find our QBotF (and some may still find reasons to dredge something up). To the last point of that paragraph: Taylor Heinicke is not the answer at QB for the WFT. 

To answer the question about Kyle Allen being the QBotF: simply put, No. He is not. 

To the last paragraph, the thing I was "leaving out," Kyle Allen was healthy in the preseason, he played in case you forgot. He did not look bothered by his injury at all and he STILL got no consideration for the starting job. It's because it was always a two-horse race as Allen is not in the same league as Fitz and Heinicke (which says a lot when you consider the average standing of both QBs). 

This coaching staff has seen Kyle Allen every year he has been a professional QB. They know what he is and what he isn't. For right now, at least, he isn't better than being a #3 QB. 

[turtle28]

23 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said:

Your first paragraph: To anyone that has input in the decision making for this team, there is no QB controversy. To the fans, on this forum and around the globe, there will ALWAYS be a QB controversy until we find our QBotF (and some may still find reasons to dredge something up). To the last point of that paragraph: Taylor Heinicke is not the answer at QB for the WFT. 

To answer the question about Kyle Allen being the QBotF: simply put, No. He is not. 

To the last paragraph, the thing I was "leaving out," Kyle Allen was healthy in the preseason, he played in case you forgot. He did not look bothered by his injury at all and he STILL got no consideration for the starting job. It's because it was always a two-horse race as Allen is not in the same league as Fitz and Heinicke (which says a lot when you consider the average standing of both QBs). 

This coaching staff has seen Kyle Allen every year he has been a professional QB. They know what he is and what he isn't. For right now, at least, he isn't better than being a #3 QB. 

Kyle Allen was only healthy enough to play the 3rd preseason game as he had a set back on July 31st in training camp practice and in that game it was clear he wasn’t quite 100% as his mobility wasn’t what it was last October before he broke his ankle.

Also, point still stands that Allen wasn’t healthy enough in May, June, July or most of August to truly push for the job. It was reported every single day of last off-season that Allen wasn’t healthy enough to win the job.

 

As to your last point, Kyle Allen is the #2 right now, so you saying he’s #3 is already wrong. On top of that, in 2020 Rivera traded for him as their #1 QB on the roster after Haskins gave the job away & they wanted him to be the starter all of last year. If Kyle Allen hadn’t broken his ankle there’s a very good chance that Taylor Heinicke wouldn’t even be in the league right now and Kyle Allen would’ve been our starting QB every game this season. You can’t just ignore how Allen breaking his ankle cost I’m the chance to prove he could be our long term starter so far in his WFT career.

I think what you’re missing is there’s a reason Ron traded a 5th for Kyle Allen and there’s a reason he is still on this roster despite not being able to be 100% the entire off-season and that’s because Ron & Kyle actually think there’s something there to develop w/ him. If they didn’t feel that way, they wouldn’t have tendered him last March to keep him around, they would’ve just moved on and drafted or signed someone else.

Edited November 15, 2021 by turtle28