Raves Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 5 hours ago, Gmen4ev said: Ain't no way Pop gives up Green. They're too far into their D&D campaign to have him get traded now. As far as kyrie wanting out I say lol. Dude was meh before LeBron. Got overrated as all hell putting up inefficient stats. Got overpaid. Then LeBron comes in and with the offense no longer running through him puts up more efficient stats. He's not a number 1 option. At best he's a great #2. If he wants to move to San Antonio then he'll need to have far better court vision. And willingness to only take efficient shots. Which I'm not sure he could adjust to in time. Also he's never had a coach like Pop before. I'm not saying their egos will clash but he'll need time to adjust to a coach calling him out on nearly every play(even if he did everything 100% correctly). I'm not sure why he wouldn't want to ride LeBron untill the wheels fall off. But I'm not going to speculate on that. The Cavs had nothing around him to make him more efficient. No legit 2nd scoring option, no good shooters, nothing. Irving with a guy like Zingas would be able to have a reliable 2nd threat on offense. I think Irving would be fine on the Cavs without LeBron if he's replaced with any reasonable SF, by reasonable I mean actually starting caliber, as they have other weapons such as Love and JR, plus their offense might be more robust. It can't be easy to play with LeBron unless you are one of those guys who's playstyle really gets improved by being mostly a 3 &D player. It's been talked about numerous times how players like Bosh and Wade had to adjust their styles to play around LeBron as LeBron wasn't going to change his style to fit with them. Irving has had to try and fit with LeBron, Love is a fine fit as he's better when he doesn't have to create, but Irving is better with the offense ran through him with occasional off-ball plays, not it being the default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Lol Kyrie thinks he's a lead guard, ey? Hope he goes to New York. Have fun winning 30 games a year the rest of your career, little guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 5 hours ago, RavensTillIDie said: Damn. Kyrie would honestly be the perfect successor to Tony Parker. Just a question of what could the Spurs realistically give up to get him? Thoughts on this trade? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8s27vro Cleveland Gets: Aldridge, Green, Murray, Favors (expiring) and Joe Johnson (expiring) plus draft picks from both the Spurs and Jazz San Antonio Gets: Irving and Shumpert Utah Gets: Kevin Love Cavs open up a ton of cap space next year and get pieces to rebuild, with or without James. Spurs shore up their back court and get better through addition by subtraction (Aldridge and Green). Utah gets a huge upgrade at the four and a perfect fit next to Gobert. That is extremely horrific for Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensTillIDie Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, candyman93 said: That is extremely horrific for Cleveland. I don't think it's the worst scenario I've seen compared to some other proposed trades, but yeah it's still not great for Cleveland. With Kyrie under contract, having no no trade clause, and Cleveland looking to win now, the team really has all the leverage. They won't move him unless they get a stupid good offer. Problem is, none of the contenders in Kyrie's supposed list of potential destinations is going to make that kind of offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 42 minutes ago, RavensTillIDie said: I don't think it's the worst scenario I've seen compared to some other proposed trades, but yeah it's still not great for Cleveland. With Kyrie under contract, having no no trade clause, and Cleveland looking to win now, the team really has all the leverage. They won't move him unless they get a stupid good offer. Problem is, none of the contenders in Kyrie's supposed list of potential destinations is going to make that kind of offer. If we dump Kyrie AND Love, we have better be getting rid of JR, Shumpert, and TT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensTillIDie Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, candyman93 said: If we dump Kyrie AND Love, we have better be getting rid of JR, Shumpert, and TT. I thought the organization, LeBron and the fans all loved TT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 51 minutes ago, bkobow05 said: Lol Kyrie thinks he's a lead guard, ey? Hope he goes to New York. Have fun winning 30 games a year the rest of your career, little guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 8 hours ago, RavensTillIDie said: Kyrie, you so stupid. This is the equivalent of saying, "I don't want to play with the best player in the world because I have an ego that needs stroking." Or does this mean there is writing on the wall regarding LeBron James? That was my initial thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelbell Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 I'd take his preferred list of destinations and essentially start it on fire if hes that adamant about about being traded from a team that's been to three straight finals, I'm trading him to a team like the Kings or the Bulls or the Magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Raves said: The Cavs had nothing around him to make him more efficient. No legit 2nd scoring option, no good shooters, nothing. Irving with a guy like Zingas would be able to have a reliable 2nd threat on offense. I think Irving would be fine on the Cavs without LeBron if he's replaced with any reasonable SF, by reasonable I mean actually starting caliber, as they have other weapons such as Love and JR, plus their offense might be more robust. It can't be easy to play with LeBron unless you are one of those guys who's playstyle really gets improved by being mostly a 3 &D player. It's been talked about numerous times how players like Bosh and Wade had to adjust their styles to play around LeBron as LeBron wasn't going to change his style to fit with them. Irving has had to try and fit with LeBron, Love is a fine fit as he's better when he doesn't have to create, but Irving is better with the offense ran through him with occasional off-ball plays, not it being the default. "Make him more efficient" - Efficient play does not need to come from your surroundings. If you take a bad shot, you took a bad shot. If you're an inefficient passer you're an inefficient passer. If you play inefficient defense, you're an inefficient defender. None of these things does someone need talent around them to make them efficient. There have always been bad teams with highly efficient players. The teams were still bad but you could argue that if said efficient player was moved to a different team that they'd thrive even more. Kyrie was an inefficient player because he played inefficient ball. Not because he didn't have the talent around him to prevent him from taking bad shots/passes/playing defense. An argument could be made that he was the Cavs only option so he shrugged off on defense to more so carry the offensive side(much like Harden some seasons back). And I might give you that. But it doesn't change the fact that he was still inefficient on the offensive side as well(unlike Harden). "Irving with a guy like Zingas would be able to have a reliable 2nd threat on offense." - This still doesn't change the fact that he's never proven to be an efficient first option. When the offense runs through Irving there is less team ball and more 1v1 match-ups/iso ball. Nothing wrong with Iso ball as in some cases its an efficient style of play. With Irving he's never proven to be much other than a great scorer(as a 2nd option). His court vision is lackluster, his facilitating his on par with his court vision, his BBIQ is average of a PG, and he's decent with setting up screens and making mismatches for the defense. Pairing him with a guy like Porzingas would just hurt Porzingas's growth more so than it would bolster the Cavs offense and keep it anywhere on par with LeBron on the team. "as they have other weapons such as Love and JR, plus their offense might be more robust." - JR Smith is a great option to have when he's your 4th-likely 5th offensive option.. And when he's playing efficiently. As we saw this last finals/playoffs, he was a shell of his 15-16 self and what you're expecting of him is likely far too much when he's your third option in an Iso style offense as he's turned more into a catch and shoot kind of player than a pull up/create his shot type of player. Also with Love we've already seen him go from "NEEDS TO BE TRADED" to "GOAT" in the span of 7 games. For what you're asking of him(I would assume 2nd option(unless you bring in Porzingas(if so, what))) he'd likely need to adjust his playing style much like JR. There's also the health issue with Love. Not really a huge deal, but always something to consider with a 2nd option. "It can't be easy to play with LeBron" - Explain? Everyone plays far more efficient ball. He's a better coach than most any other coach in the leauge. He's one of the greatest players of all time. All you need to do is follow his instructions and you do well(for the most part). You don't need to just be a 3&D player to greatly benefit from having LeBron on your team. With LeBron comes the fact that you'll never face the best defender the other team has. Your teams spacing will be amazing considering his versatility. His court vision and BBIQ rivals like like of Chris Paul. He'll get you open looks by just driving the paint forcing your defender to shrug off and help his defender. Also factor in his facilitating aspects, always keeping the ball moving. Being able to get guys like JR Smith and Kevin Love great looks by keeping the ball always in motion. I'm not sure how hard it would be to play with LeBron compared to the likes of Kevin Durant/Steph Curry. But I'd imagine it would be far more difficult playing with the 2012 Cavs than it would LeBron. So unfortunately you can't have it both ways when trying to defend Irving, its one way or the other. "LeBron wasn't going to change his style to fit with them" - It was LeBron's team and LeBron was the best basketball player in the world. He didn't need to adjust his play style because realistically there was nothing to adjust. Wade needed to adjust given his aging body. Bosh adjusted due to the fact that he wanted a ring, as well as being the ultimate team player. You could say they were "force to change" but when the almost guarantee of championships looms over you, you're likely going to change however you best possibly could to win as many championships as you can. Which they did. "Irving has had to try and fit with LeBron" - You say players need to be a 3&D player to adjust to LeBron or else the change comes harder. But I ask what did you think Irving was before LeBron came to town? He certainly wasn't a facilitator first. He wasn't a lockdown defender. He was mostly an offensive minded player first and adjusting to LeBron coming back has been relatively easy for him because of it. LeBron took over as the first option. So for Irving he needed to do far less on offense, and when he was given looks they were often great due to the fact that he was paired with the 2nd-3rd best defender on the team. Because of this he played far more efficient ball, also due to the fact that LeBron running the offense had set up a majority of the plays with most of them being efficient. With this higher efficiency on offense Irving had to spend less energy running the offense/trying to get great looks. Therefor he could dedicate more time to his defensive efforts. Thus becoming a 3(offensive minded)&D player. Not sure what point you were trying to make here. But if it was to say that Irving wasn't a 3&D player before LeBron then you're really just contradicting yourself. "Irving is better with the offense ran through him with occasional off-ball plays" - Other than he's not, considering he was far less efficient in the years prior to LeBron, as you clearly said in your first sentence. I'm not going to delve into this any deeper because you've contradicted yourself multiple times. Mostly trying to shift blame on others rather than Irving himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 41 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Or does this mean there is writing on the wall regarding LeBron James? That was my initial thought. Yes LeBron James is tough to work with as he strives for the best and gives 100% every day and expects the same from his teammates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Actually you keep cherry picking, not really worth going into the giant wall of text to try to point it out further than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Just now, Gmen4ev said: Yes LeBron James is tough to work with as he strives for the best and gives 100% every day and expects the same from his teammates. Actually no, he doesn't give 100% every day, that's pretty funny to think that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Raves said: Actually you keep cherry picking, not really worth going into the giant wall of text to try to point it out further than that. Good debate mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 If you're not going to at least debate Id like to hear your reasoning behind. "Irving was inefficient because he played with 0 talent" to saying "He's far better with the offense run through him, than he is 2nd fiddle" Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.