WEEK 11: 5-5 Denver Broncos vs. 6-4 LA Chargers - Sunday 2:05 MST/4:05 EST

[paul-mac]

8 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

People won't like it, but if (huge if, I know) Aaron Rodgers was to come here, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Vic Fangio was retained.

Rodgers knows all too well how good of a Defensive Coach Vic is. He played (and struggled at times) a ton against Vic when he was at the Bears.

If Rodgers is given the opportunity to hand pick the Offensive playcaller (and thus the scheme), whilst getting a significant input into the weekly gameplan, do you really think he's going to be bothered about who the HC is? I don't.

To be honest, you could apply that same logic to any of the top tier vet QB's we're being linked with.

 

 

Probably worth pointing out that the decision on Fangio will have to be made long before any Rodgers trade goes down. 

[BroncoBruin]

1 hour ago, paul-mac said:

Wade Phillips for one was far better than Fangio. In fact I’m not sure there’s a defensive mind in football that’s done less with more talent than Fangio has in Denver. 

Couldn’t disagree more. What Fangio did with that 2019 group was a testament to how great of a defensive mind he is. Last year nobody could have succeeded. This year they’ve had up and down games but have shown a pretty high ceiling against high quality offenses. Overall he’s done a very good job with the defense considering the personnel limitations. 

[champ11]

need that next game topic @broncos67

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Couldn’t disagree more. What Fangio did with that 2019 group was a testament to how great of a defensive mind he is. Last year nobody could have succeeded. This year they’ve had up and down games but have shown a pretty high ceiling against high quality offenses. Overall he’s done a very good job with the defense considering the personnel limitations. 

When you add that to his talent for player development he looks pretty good to me. What he and his staff have done with the LB's and OL this year is insane. 

[broncosfan07]

We are describing why Fangio is an excellent DC, the problem is Fangio does not get the whole picture and ignores the offense and ST which is sort of important as a HC. Like I said earlier I think he’s going to have to prove he can win in the playoffs to have any hope of coming back but hoping we keep Fangio as HC because we like him as a DC is asinine. If the offense was devoid of talent then ok I can buy that maybe, but that’s not the case the offense is at times anemic, inept or inconsistent and that falls on the HC who’s job is the entire team not just his defense. 

Now you can say the true fault lies with Elway for hiring Fangio for a position he maybe wasn’t completely well suited for, but at this point the bed is made, Fangio is going to succeed or fail as the HEAD COACH not for what he does as a DC.

[AKRNA]

33 minutes ago, broncosfan07 said:

We are describing why Fangio is an excellent DC, the problem is Fangio does not get the whole picture and ignores the offense and ST which is sort of important as a HC. Like I said earlier I think he’s going to have to prove he can win in the playoffs to have any hope of coming back but hoping we keep Fangio as HC because we like him as a DC is asinine. If the offense was devoid of talent then ok I can buy that maybe, but that’s not the case the offense is at times anemic, inept or inconsistent and that falls on the HC who’s job is the entire team not just his defense. 

Now you can say the true fault lies with Elway for hiring Fangio for a position he maybe wasn’t completely well suited for, but at this point the bed is made, Fangio is going to succeed or fail as the HEAD COACH not for what he does as a DC.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Virtually every HC in the NFL, past or present, acts as OC or DC depending on his talents and hires someone else to take care of the other side of the ball.  Fangio's problem was he hired the wrong guys and is too loyal to fire them. The answers simple. Paton steps up, tells Vic he's going to replace McMahon and Shurmur and that's it. Vic won't argue, he'd probably be grateful.

Sure, a HC is ultimately responsible for both sides of the ball and ST's. The truth is, actually having the time to closely oversee them while handling the role of OC or DC is just a fantasy. Paton knows it too.

Outside of a very few games Vic's teams are always well prepared.  As far as player development they're excellent. On the defensive side of the ball they're very well coached. OL the same. The issues are ST's and offensive production.

Paton and Vic are both fans of a classic WCO. Hire an OC that can do that. Our offense is stuck on 20 ppg, even with very good personnel. Kubiak in Minnesota is getting close to 26ppg. Hire him.

Right now we're an incredibly appealing franchise for a QB or OC. Fangio defense, 3rd in the NFL, lots of talent at the offensive skill positions, excellent running game to work off of and a young, tough, very deep OL. Add a talented OC and ST coordinator and we're instant contenders. Toss in Rodgers and there's no limits. 

Right now we're just a piece or two away. Fire Fangio and his staff and we're back to square 1. 

 

[broncosfan07]

30 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Virtually every HC in the NFL, past or present, acts as OC or DC depending on his talents and hires someone else to take care of the other side of the ball.  Fangio's problem was he hired the wrong guys and is too loyal to fire them. The answers simple. Paton steps up, tells Vic he's going to replace McMahon and Shurmur and that's it. Vic won't argue, he'd probably be grateful.

Sure, a HC is ultimately responsible for both sides of the ball and ST's. The truth is, actually having the time to closely oversee them while handling the role of OC or DC is just a fantasy. Paton knows it too.

Outside of a very few games Vic's teams are always well prepared.  As far as player development they're excellent. On the defensive side of the ball they're very well coached. OL the same. The issues are ST's and offensive production.

Paton and Vic are both fans of a classic WCO. Hire an OC that can do that. Our offense is stuck on 20 ppg, even with very good personnel. Kubiak in Minnesota is getting close to 26ppg. Hire him.

Right now we're an incredibly appealing franchise for a QB or OC. Fangio defense, 3rd in the NFL, lots of talent at the offensive skill positions, excellent running game to work off of and a young, tough, very deep OL. Add a talented OC and ST coordinator and we're instant contenders. Toss in Rodgers and there's no limits. 

Right now we're just a piece or two away. Fire Fangio and his staff and we're back to square 1. 

 

I really just don’t agree with any of that sorry. Fire Fangio and hire the right coach and staff and this team takes off. Fangio is who he is, a DC masquerading around as a HC, why you think he’s going to adapt I don’t really know. If he had the faintest clue McMahon would’ve been fired a year ago, Shurmur would’ve been let go weeks ago. 

No other franchise is going to hire Fangio as a HC when he’s fired so what does that tell you? You list stats that prove Fangio is a good DC, his win-loss record is the only stat that matters as HC. I really don’t care if his defense gives up 28 PPG if he wins games, that is his only job period.

Edited December 3, 2021 by broncosfan07

[lomaxgrUK]

I actually don't disagree that Fangio isn't a good Head Coach. I am not sure many around here would.

Basically what it comes down to is the net positive of losing Fangio coaching and calling our Defense vs the gains of better in game Head Coaching decisions and attention to Special Teams.

It's all hypothetical and impossible to quantify, but personally I think (with a top notch QB) the net positive of losing Fangio is going to be a minus figure.

 

[broncosfan07]

4 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I actually don't disagree that Fangio isn't a good Head Coach. I am not sure many around here would.

Basically what it comes down to is the net positive of losing Fangio coaching and calling our Defense vs the gains of better in game Head Coaching decisions and attention to Special Teams.

It's all hypothetical and impossible to quantify, but personally I think (with a top notch QB) the net positive of losing Fangio is going to be a minus figure.

 

Certainly we can get worse on defense but we could hypothetically keep the defensive staff or hire someone that coaches his style of defense. Staley would’ve been the best candidate for that but were a year too late for that to happen. Personally I think of Fangio of a John Fox(better DC but worse as HC), probably never going to win a SB but provides stability and builds a core of talent. The difference being John Fox had Peyton whereas Fangio does not, but Fox also had Tebow and made the playoffs. 

I think what’s going to cost Fangio is his teams had plenty of chances to seize opportunities to change the course of the season or simply win games and they’ve failed every time. At the end of the day what that tells me is we have a poorly coached team and you can only sacrifice assistants to the guillotine for so long before the HC is.

I do think there’s a chance the offensive staff is overhauled and Fangio is kept but based on what we’ve seen so far, I have little confidence Fangio gets this team into the playoffs but I could very well be wrong.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, broncosfan07 said:

Certainly we can get worse on defense but we could hypothetically keep the defensive staff or hire someone that coaches his style of defense. Staley would’ve been the best candidate for that but were a year too late for that to happen. Personally I think of Fangio of a John Fox(better DC but worse as HC), probably never going to win a SB but provides stability and builds a core of talent. The difference being John Fox had Peyton whereas Fangio does not, but Fox also had Tebow and made the playoffs. 

I think what’s going to cost Fangio is his teams had plenty of chances to seize opportunities to change the course of the season or simply win games and they’ve failed every time. At the end of the day what that tells me is we have a poorly coached team and you can only sacrifice assistants to the guillotine for so long before the HC is.

I do think there’s a chance the offensive staff is overhauled and Fangio is kept but based on what we’ve seen so far, I have little confidence Fangio gets this team into the playoffs but I could very well be wrong.

The thing that damns Fangio's future this year is that he's not really improved in any of his weaknesses.   His game management is still horrific.    And worse yet, he's not followed the one mantra he's harped on with his players - accountability.     When he was asked about the player injuries, he called out the players saying "they can't use that as an excuse" - they, not we.   When Teddy didn't try to make the tackle, Fangio didn't call him out on it until the backlash the next day.    His failure to give up the game management aspect of the game speaks to this even more.   There's no doubt he's a very good DC.   But the gains aren't worth the negatives with him as a HC.

One other comment - the belief that if we lose Fangio, we lose the entire coaching staff - isn't necessarily true when it comes to OL Coach Mike Munchak.   Munchak basically has stated over and over again he only wants to coach in Denver to be with his family (young grandchildren here).    We could easily see Munchak be retained by a new HC candidate.   While there are other guys who earned a shot to stay, he's the key guy IMO.   Anyone else can be replaced (and so can Munchak - just not so easily lol, and why I'd offer to keep him in perpetuity).   

Honestly, I don't see Fangio surviving barring an improbable playoff run extending past WC week.  I don't see making the playoffs, either, TBH, but even if it's one and done - it just highlights where we need to go to really contend.    I'd liken it very much to the decision made to part ways with John Fox - it was painfully clear he couldn't be the guy at the top for us to get past the mid-playoffs hump.   We're now at the stage where legitimate contention is only a QB away - that puts the microscope on whether the HC we have is the guy that can continue the ascent.   For all that Fangio does as a DC, the rest of his HC skills limit that growth, and I think even those who think he should stay see that.    Especially with a GM that didn't hire him, I don't see that lasting beyond this season, if it ends as we think it will.   Guess we'll see.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Broncofan

[Broncofan]

wrong thread

Edited December 6, 2021 by Broncofan