Way too early 2022 offseason thoughts

[bigben07MVP]

40 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I’m not sure what he would want. But I would be very interested lining him up next to Bush. Even on the downslope as a leader and someone to hopefully help revive Bush…would be hugely impactful. 

I would love Wagner and I’d imagine we would be an attractive destination for him but imagine he won’t be cheap. It’d be very unlike the Steelers to give big money to a guy his age.

[bigben07MVP]

I wasn’t sure where else to post this but this is an excellent breakdown on what went wrong with our running game last year. Najee certainly has some room to grow in the vision and decision making department. Watching this reminded me of why I preferred a RB like Etienne over Harris last year (I’m obviously thrilled with Najee and think we made the right decision) but Najee had too many opportunities missed when the o-line actually cleared lanes for him. Najee is great and all but he isn’t exactly a dynamic pure runner. 
 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by bigben07MVP

[43M]

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I’m not sure what he would want. But I would be very interested lining him up next to Bush. Even on the downslope as a leader and someone to hopefully help revive Bush…would be hugely impactful. 

Id take anyone other than Schoebert next to Bush.    Not sure Wagner is the perfect complement, but he can't be much worse than that.

[AFF]

4 hours ago, 43M said:

Dude was trash in 2020 and is a terrible "compliment" to Bush.      

Still really early, but Im not encouraged by anything this team is doing so far (except maybe hiring Flores).    Hopefully the next two months changes that, but I doubt it.

Oh trust me I want him gone too but I was just stating a possibility...the FO might wanna to try to concentrate on other needs and still save a few $mill against the cap.

[43M]

3 hours ago, AFF said:

Oh trust me I want him gone too but I was just stating a possibility...the FO might wanna to try to concentrate on other needs and still save a few $mill against the cap.

No offense to you, but If that's really their logic....its beyond stupid.

I could understand if it were a cheap, young C$1 player like Bush.   But this is a guy who has never actually been that good and in reality, weakens BOTH ILB spots with his presence and is taking up over $9m in cap space.    Its not necessarily all his fault since Bush is an extremely underwhelming player who needs to have his hand held in order to look remotely decent....but the reality is, Bush needs a better talent and better complimentary player next to him or he is going to fail, again.

If we replace Schobert, Bush might....MIGHT turn things around a bit and give us an idea of whether or not its worth keeping around any longer.

If not, there is a good chance we need 2 new ILBs next year.   We might either way, but Id rather go down swinging with Bush since we foolishly gave up so much to get him.

Hell, if nothing else, Id rather see Buddy Johnson starting next to Bush, and use the money from cutting Schobert on another position.

Schobert and Bush were two of the worst ILBs in the league last year.   Keeping them together is toxic to our defense.     Its not a major stretch to say that almost any alternative is better.    Even if Buddy Johnson sucked, at least we are seeing what we have in a young player.   

There is nothing to be gained by keeping Schobert around unless he is willing to cut his salary by $8m and stay on as a backup....which I doubt.

Edited March 9, 2022 by 43M

[warfelg]

I don't mind Schobert not being released yet for one reason; yesterday was the tag deadline and a few more resignings could happen.  I'm a big proponent of don't create a hole you don't need to.  What would be the point of releasing Schobert for $9mil in savings just to sign someone that will bring just as much for only $7.5-8.5mil?  

But now that you know guys like Hightower, Van Noy, Brown, LVE, Wagner are out there for sure in FA, I think it's time to dump Schobert.  I think you can get a LVE/Hightower and Brown combo for the same year 1 cap hit you are paying Schobert.

Although I was thinking about Coach O in this, and do we think he's still a good ILB's coach?  Outside of Shazier (and maybe Vince Williams), most of our ILB's lately haven't really grown much.  We cycle through guys and can't find ones that stick.  Is it an issue of not finding the right players or the coaching isn't getting more out of the players?

[bigben07MVP]

If we could get Jordan Love for a 2023 3rd round pick (or 2023 4th and 2023 6th), would you pull the trigger?

I think when you look at all our current options this isn’t so bad. It’s a minimal investment financially, you throw him out there to compete with Mason and Haskins and he either sinks (and we get our QB in 2023) or swims. 

idk I think I prefer this to giving money to Bridgwater/Trubisky or trading a 1st for Jimmy G. 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by bigben07MVP

[August4th]

I would trade a 5th at most for Love. He did not look all that good in his two games last yr and GB doing everything in its power to keep A-rod and his baggage instead of handing the job to Love says a lot about what they think about Love development.

[43M]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I don't mind Schobert not being released yet for one reason; yesterday was the tag deadline and a few more resignings could happen.  I'm a big proponent of don't create a hole you don't need to. 

Its already a hole whether we release him or not.   

My question is....what exactly does Schobert offer us that we cant find pretty much anywhere?     He is garbage in every phase of the game.    Most of his tackles comes 5+ yards past the line of scrimmage.   He makes zero splash plays.    He sucks in coverage.     He isnt fast enough to get to the edge to stop speedy backs.   

I wasnt a huge fan of trading for him to begin with, but since it was a pretty cheap option, I didnt mind too much.   

However, he was absolutely awful last year and he is no longer cheap.   There is and will never be any justification for keeping him on the roster at his current salary.    He shouldve been cut as soon as the season ended unless he was willing to take a $7mil pay cut. 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

What would be the point of releasing Schobert for $9mil in savings just to sign someone that will bring just as much for only $7.5-8.5mil?  

Or you can start Buddy Johnson or sign a cheap FA to start.

Again, what exactly did Schobert do well last year?      What exactly would we be missing even if Buddy Johnson or the new starter sucked when neither can suck much more than Schobert did last year?

At the very least, you save several million that can be dedicated to another position like OLine or secondary, while MAYBE finding a better complimentary LB to Bush's skillset.

Again, you keep Schobert around, youre wasting big $$$ and weakening potentially both ILB positions.

 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

But now that you know guys like Hightower, Van Noy, Brown, LVE, Wagner are out there for sure in FA, I think it's time to dump Schobert.  I think you can get a LVE/Hightower and Brown combo for the same year 1 cap hit you are paying Schobert.

I like those options, but as I said, I would even take Buddy Johnson over Schobert right now.

Thats how little he has to offer.

I wouldnt be totally opposed to him being a backup for $2m or so, but after last year, no one should be looking at him as a potential starter ever again.   

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Although I was thinking about Coach O in this, and do we think he's still a good ILB's coach?  Outside of Shazier (and maybe Vince Williams), most of our ILB's lately haven't really grown much.  We cycle through guys and can't find ones that stick.  Is it an issue of not finding the right players or the coaching isn't getting more out of the players?

Maybe a little of both, but what exactly has he been given to work with at ILB since Shazier?

Devin Bush was never some slam dunk prospect and it was a huge mistake to trade up for him.    He got overdrafted because he made a ton of splash plays in college, but when he wasnt making splash plays, he wasnt really doing anything.   Alot of the issues he he is having now were issues he had in college.     You could perhaps chalk some of that up to poor coaching, but Shazier had some issues when he first started, but he progressed and got better.        Some players just dont improve the way you hope.

Schobert was never that good.    He had a couple seasons where he looked relatively decent on bad defenses, but was never consistently good.    Browns fans were happy to get rid of him, and there is a reason such a talent deficient team in Jax was willing to trade him for a 6th rd pick.       He has very little to offer and even they knew it.

Beyond that...what?     A bunch of late round picks and bargin bin FAs?

Im not going to act like I know how good of a coach Orsalvsky is, but I can say that losing Shazier so suddenly hurt us in a major way, and Bush IMO was a home run swing they likely whiffed on in trying to replace him.  

[43M]

17 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

If we could get Jordan Love for a 2023 3rd round pick (or 2023 4th and 2023 6th), would you pull the trigger?

I think when you look at all our current options this isn’t so bad. It’s a minimal investment financially, you throw him out there to compete with Mason and Haskins and he either sinks (and we get our QB in 2023) or swims. 

idk I think I prefer this to giving money to Bridgwater/Trubisky or trading a 1st for Jimmy G. 

 

LMAO...no.

Id rather roll with Haskins than any of those options.

If we cant get a vet QB for a decent price, wait until after the draft and see if prices come down on some of the guys who arent signed, maybe a guy like Mariota or Tyrod Taylor.     If their prices are still too high, roll with the trash we have.

And no one is trading a 1st for Jimmy G.   Ill be shocked if they even get a 2nd at this point.     

[warfelg]

I’m sorry @43M but your counterpoints don’t change my opinion at all. Mostly because I’m on board with Schobert being gone, I just don’t see the need to do it right this minute. 

[jebrick]

I think people are hearing the talking heads blabber.  The talking heads do not even make sense to themselves.  In the same show that they bash Jimmy g for being not able to do well and a poor overall QB they want the Steelers to send multiple high picks to the 49ers for him.

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, jebrick said:

I think people are hearing the talking heads blabber.  The talking heads do not even make sense to themselves.  In the same show that they bash Jimmy g for being not able to do well and a poor overall QB they want the Steelers to send multiple high picks to the 49ers for him.

There’s also much cap misunderstanding out there. As much of an a-hole Steelers Depot’s Dave can be he is really good with the cap stuff. Cutting Schobert now saves more like $8mil (rule of 52 replacement money in there). Then you are signing someone new, who would take into that $8mil and displace the rule of 52 hold. 
 

But as cap order you could sign someone for $5mil, then cut Schobert, and save a net $4mil. If you wanted to you could hold onto Scho and use his cut as a way to sign your draft class. So let’s say you want to sign Jayon Brown, then draft Dean/Lloyd, keeping Schobert means you can spend up to the cap, draft, cut Scho, then sign picks and end up at the same place, but you kept the player so if the draft didn’t unfold they way you wanted to you were fine. 
 

Basically the messing up of that order is what happened with VWill last year (pre-retirement). They cut him, didn’t gain a huge cap gain, didn’t sign a replacement, drafted Johnson, through mini-camps he didn’t impress, so they signed VWill and in the end the cap impact remained the same. Of course he then retired forcing subsequent moves. 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Although I was thinking about Coach O in this, and do we think he's still a good ILB's coach?  Outside of Shazier (and maybe Vince Williams), most of our ILB's lately haven't really grown much.  We cycle through guys and can't find ones that stick.  Is it an issue of not finding the right players or the coaching isn't getting more out of the players?

My question is always are coaches maximizing talent: I think Coach O checks that box. Our ILB position has pretty much been 1 highly drafted guy and then matching qualities next to him. From Timmons, to Shazier, and then to Bush. 

But lining up next to them were the likes of Vince Williams, Tyler Matakevich, Robert Spillane. A 6th, 7th, and UDFA. They all do play good football, but physical limitations hold them back. 

Bush is kinda the exception, IMO. He IS talented and had decent production/play year 1 and before injury in year 2. There have been some exceptions surrounding and compounding his issues last year. But Shazier and Timmons were good players and they do maximize the abilities in that second spot. I don't think it's coaching. Since Jerry took over the ILB job, we have drafted 4 ILB - Bush, Tyler, UG3, and Buddy Johnson. We will see what steps Buddy Johnson takes and if Bush can rebound, but I wouldn't be looking to change coaches....yet. 

[Dcash4]

I am in no hurry to cut Schobert. FA doesn't start until next week. In honesty, there is no reason to do so right now. But if they believe that Spillane is the #2 next to Bush, then there is also no reason to keep Schobert around. Rob was taking snaps from him last year anyway. They can always draft/get a FA to replace Spillane as the starter, but if the reason for not cutting Schobert is to not eliminate a position -- he would actually have to hold that position in the first place. The way the treated it at the end of the year, I am not sure that's the case. 

I would be curious to know, however, how afraid of Bush rebounding they are. Maybe they are not considering keeping Schobert NEXT to Bush....but rather as a potential competition/replacement for him. I am literally just thinking out loud on that as I type, but I probably won't stop thinking about that if he remains on the roster after the start of FA.