Is Gronk the greatest TE ever?

[minutemancl]

The only thing the closest guy has on him is sustained greatness over a longer period, but if Gronk keeps playing like he is playing, yeah I don't see how he isn't.

[Soko]

5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

You need to do a bit more studying. There was an uptick in passing efficiency in 2004 but it regressed back in 2005 and the following years. The difference in passing efficiency from 1998 to 2009 is negligible…

5 points in passer rating, 5 points in completion percentage is negligible? 

[AngusMcFife]

39 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

5 points in passer rating, 5 points in completion percentage is negligible? 

AY/A 

1998: 6.2
2009: 6.4

Yes the passing environment was friendlier in 2009, but it's not that substantial. From 2009 it goes steadily up to its highest at 7.3 in 2018. 

There was a jump in 2004 in efficiency but it regressed the following years:

Passer rating:

2001: 78.5
2002: 80.4
2003: 78.3
2004: 82.8
2005: 80.1
2006: 80.4

Compared to a steady rise in the 2010s that got the league-wide passer rating up to 93 in 2018. 

You are right, maybe negligible was too strong a word on my part. But my general point is that there was not a huge explosion in passing after 2004. There were small incremental changes that increased passing efficiency in the 2000s, but there are much larger ones that increased it in the 2010s. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by AngusMcFife

[DinoZ]

2 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Of players who are in the debate for top 10, I would go with the players who had higher peaks vs the ones who played the longest. 

Do this.....

 

Google Jason Witten stats.....ok?   You really seem to know anything about him.  Bone up on who he was, ok?

[SkippyX]

Everyone is welcome to the 'Gonzo was statistically and team accomplishment inferior because his QBs were not good enough angle'.

I love this because it always leads to Randall Cunningham on the Eagles as the greatest player of all time.

• NFC East competition won 7 SBs in his 11 years.
• His O-line was crap
• His offensive coaches were simpletons
• He literally started his career in the most difficult way possible
  • Buddy just used him as a 3rd and long QB for much of his second year (9 games)
  • Then he gave him his first start against LT and Belichick.
    • LT had 7 sacks in 2 Eagles games in 1986
• Buddy's game plan was go make 5 plays, yeet!
• He had to face Gibbs, Parcells/Belichick, and Jimmy Johnson at various points of his career there
• He was the Ultimate Weapon with a pair of rookie 3rd and 5th round pick WRs in 1990.
• He had 2 really good WRs. Mike Quick got hurt almost immediately, and Cris Carter snorted his way out of town to rehab in Minny
• Their #4 overall RB could not run the ball (Byars)
• Their other RBs were worse like Anthony Toney
• Cunningham threw for 400+ in the fog but got a TD dropped and another called back for a RB illegal motion (fog bowl)
• Their #1 pick O-lineman went to jail (Kevin Allen?)
• Their other high #1 pick was a complete bust (Michael Haddix)
• They traded another #1 pick to Indy for an OL (Ron Solt) who forgot to bring his 'roids with him so he deflated
• His supposed dominant D was only really dominant in 1991, when he got hurt in week 1. (they solved the 2nd starting corner issue)
  • Ben Smith instead of Izel 'Toast' Jenkins
• Ray Rhodes tried to square peg him into the WCO and gave him 7 weeks to master it.
  • Rhodes other QBs in Philly put up 59 TDs and 71 picks in 4 years of his putrid West Coast Offal
    • Rhodes got another job in Green Bay for some reason and went 8-8 with Favre.
• I can do this all day ...

At the end of the day this is of course still BS. Greatness is not defined by excuses for not being great enough to be the best.

Also, how could any of that possibly compare to having to play with:

• Grbac had 50 TDs and 29 picks and went to a pro bowl as a QB for Gonzo
• Gannon had 17 TDs to 10 picks in Gonzo's part time year 1 and full time year 2
  • The guy left and went to 4 straight pro bowls and won a league MVP so he was not exactly Jamarcus Russell
• 5 1/2 years with 2x pro bowl QB Trent Green
• During 2001-2006 the Chiefs also had a deadly run game that put 8 in the box on D constantly
  • This includes the 9-7 Green / Huard playoff team in 2006
    • It must have been such a burden with those 11 TDs to 1 pick from Huard that year!
• 5 years with 4x pro bowl and 2016 league MVP Matt Ryan (oh look, another league MVP QB!)

 

Gonzo was part of a top 10 offense in KC for as many as 7 of 12 years. (top 5 for 4 years)

He was part of a top 10 offense in Atlanta for 3 of 5 years.

He was not exactly on the 1976-77 Bucs for his career.

So he had 40 games of bad QB play from 3 scrubs out of his 270 games. Why should we treat him as pathetic and pretend he is better than his accomplishments?

 

Hint:  POOR BABY! Is never the greatest at anything.

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

So he had 40 games of bad QB play from 3 scrubs out of his 270 games. Why should we treat him as pathetic and pretend he is better than his accomplishments?

Hint:  POOR BABY! Is never the greatest at anything.

His accomplishments include being 6th all time in receiving yards and 3rd in receptions. 6x All-Pro and 14 Pro-Bowls. I think those speak for themselves. 

[Jakuvious]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

I'm not going into the QB thing. Gonzalez played 5 years with Matt Ryan and his stats didn't noticeably improve at all in those 5 years. From 05 to 13 regardless of QB he was basically the same player aside from 07 being an anomaly up year. Yes Gronk had Brady, Brady also is probably one the worst elite QB's when it comes to favoring receiving targets and is known to spread the ball the around a lot. Moss literally left because he wasn't happy with not getting targets often enough. When Tony first came  to Atlanta he pretty much was the only named receiving threat and had a QB everyone recognized as being very good. Julio didn't come until half way through his time there and even then one year he was a rookie and another he was injured. Tony had all the opportunities he could ask for in 64 games with a top tier QB. 

When Gonzalez made it to Atlanta, he was older than Gronk is now. As well as he aged and as great as his longevity was, he was past prime by the time he made it to the Falcons.

Matt Ryan was a 2nd year QB when Gonzalez arrived, so I wouldn't exactly say everyone recognized Ryan as very good. He was developing and promising, but sophomore Ryan is several tiers below peak Brady.

Gonzalez arriving in Atlanta then would be akin to giving current Gronk to a Joe Burrow or Mac Jones right now. An aging TE to an up and coming, but not yet great, QB.

Roddy White was coming off his first pro-bowl season when Gonzalez arrived, the first of four straight that he would have. I really don't know how you could forget he existed.

You're just wrong on a number of these points. Like, objectively, not subjectively.

I also doubt there's any actual statistical merit to the idea that Brady spreads the ball around more than anyone else. I can't think of any QB who has had more seasons with receivers going for 100+ catches. Brady will throw to whoever is capable of getting open. Moss got fed just fine when he was still good enough to justify it. It stopped as he declined, got disgruntled, and wanted a final payday wherever he could get it.

[SkippyX]

The Gonzo argument falls apart with some very basic logic.

If yards and TDs make you the greatest 

• Is Phillip Rivers the 6th best QB of all-time? He's 5th in yards and 6th in TDs.
• Is Eli the 9th greatest QB in NFL history? The yards and TDs say so.
• Again, is Testaverde a better QB than Montana? He's got him in yards and TDs.
• Is McNabb better than Steve Young?

Now look at the metrics and the accomplishments and the answer is obvious.

• QB rating is just a system of 4 metrics

 

How about at RB? I'm not sure anyone who did not contribute DNA to Emmitt Smith actually thinks he's the best RB ever.

• He does have the yards and TDs, he even has 3 Super Bowls.

Most people think its one of the guys who are 2nd, 4th, or 11th in yards. Those same guys are 5th, 6th, and 10th in TDs.

Emmitt is 16th in yards per game. Those guys are 1st, 2nd and 5th in yards per game.

Emmitt is in about a 28 way tie at about 100th in yards per carry. The other 3 guys are 4th, 8th, and about 70th

First ballot Hall of Famer. top 10 RB for sure, probably top 5, not the GoaT.

 

So the defense of Gonzo at #1 is that you don't want to look at the metrics and accomplishments because they burn your case to the ground.

Unless the rules for QBs and RBs don't apply to TEs while pretending blocking does not count for TEs also.

 

The entire argument is based on swiss cheese logic.

My favorite point to destroy is the 'Gonzo got old so his yards per catch got worse'.

• Gronk's worst career ypc is 13.0 Gonzalez's best career ypc is 12.9 (he was 30 or younger for 10 of those years)
  • Did Gonzo slow down at the end? sure  Was his peak near Gronk's average? Not even close.
• Gonzo's best yards per target was 8.7
  • Gronk has 9 seasons above that number
• Gronk had 5 of 10 seasons with 10+ TDs. This includes 11 TDs in an 11 game season. He's got a chance this year with 6 in 8 games.

Its also cute because Gonzo gets credit for 4187 yards and 35 TDs in Atlanta but at the same time you want us to ignore his 10.2 per catch there.

Lets do what you say and not count those years. He's now at 10940 yards and 76 TDs through age 32 and his ypc is still only 11.9 (190 games)

Gronk still beats him with 8982 92 and 14.7 with 4 more games to go. (139 to 143 games)

Throw in the playoffs to get the games played a little closer

• Gonzo 11046 and 78 TDs at 11.9 (193 games)
• Gronk  10255 and 106 TDs at 14.6 (159-163 games)
  • I get that you probably want to cry POOR BABY! that Gronk helped his team win playoff games while Gonzo did not.

Is the concept that on the average target to player x or the average catch to player x they go further than player y really some advanced level thinking?

Is it important for QBs and RBs to get as many yards as possible on a play but who cares for TEs?

• Just wave your hands around and talk about depth of target as if catching deep balls or YAC are bad things or something that the guy with a faster 40 time is too POOR BABY! to ever get deep or outrun some safeties?
• How could he ever get deep on a team with 3 HoF O-lineman and a multiple pro bowl QB?
  • I don't care if the morons don't ever vote Brian Waters in. He is a HoF worthy player. (the other 2 are already in)
    • Gronk averaged 14.7 and had 17 TDs in the year that Waters was blocking for Brady. (2011)

[SkippyX]

Gronk has 34 games of 100+ yards in 159 games.

Gonzo had 31 games of 100+ yards in 277 games.

 

Gronk has 24 games with 2+ TDs in 159

Gonzo had 18 games with 2+ TDs in 277

 

Those are good things for pass catchers, right?

[kingseanjohn]

11 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Everyone is welcome to the 'Gonzo was statistically and team accomplishment inferior because his QBs were not good enough angle'.

I love this because it always leads to Randall Cunningham on the Eagles as the greatest player of all time.

• NFC East competition won 7 SBs in his 11 years.
• His O-line was crap
• His offensive coaches were simpletons
• He literally started his career in the most difficult way possible
  • Buddy just used him as a 3rd and long QB for much of his second year (9 games)
  • Then he gave him his first start against LT and Belichick.
    • LT had 7 sacks in 2 Eagles games in 1986
• Buddy's game plan was go make 5 plays, yeet!
• He had to face Gibbs, Parcells/Belichick, and Jimmy Johnson at various points of his career there
• He was the Ultimate Weapon with a pair of rookie 3rd and 5th round pick WRs in 1990.
• He had 2 really good WRs. Mike Quick got hurt almost immediately, and Cris Carter snorted his way out of town to rehab in Minny
• Their #4 overall RB could not run the ball (Byars)
• Their other RBs were worse like Anthony Toney
• Cunningham threw for 400+ in the fog but got a TD dropped and another called back for a RB illegal motion (fog bowl)
• Their #1 pick O-lineman went to jail (Kevin Allen?)
• Their other high #1 pick was a complete bust (Michael Haddix)
• They traded another #1 pick to Indy for an OL (Ron Solt) who forgot to bring his 'roids with him so he deflated
• His supposed dominant D was only really dominant in 1991, when he got hurt in week 1. (they solved the 2nd starting corner issue)
  • Ben Smith instead of Izel 'Toast' Jenkins
• Ray Rhodes tried to square peg him into the WCO and gave him 7 weeks to master it.
  • Rhodes other QBs in Philly put up 59 TDs and 71 picks in 4 years of his putrid West Coast Offal
    • Rhodes got another job in Green Bay for some reason and went 8-8 with Favre.
• I can do this all day ...

At the end of the day this is of course still BS. Greatness is not defined by excuses for not being great enough to be the best.

Also, how could any of that possibly compare to having to play with:

• Grbac had 50 TDs and 29 picks and went to a pro bowl as a QB for Gonzo
• Gannon had 17 TDs to 10 picks in Gonzo's part time year 1 and full time year 2
  • The guy left and went to 4 straight pro bowls and won a league MVP so he was not exactly Jamarcus Russell
• 5 1/2 years with 2x pro bowl QB Trent Green
• During 2001-2006 the Chiefs also had a deadly run game that put 8 in the box on D constantly
  • This includes the 9-7 Green / Huard playoff team in 2006
    • It must have been such a burden with those 11 TDs to 1 pick from Huard that year!
• 5 years with 4x pro bowl and 2016 league MVP Matt Ryan (oh look, another league MVP QB!)

 

Gonzo was part of a top 10 offense in KC for as many as 7 of 12 years. (top 5 for 4 years)

He was part of a top 10 offense in Atlanta for 3 of 5 years.

He was not exactly on the 1976-77 Bucs for his career.

So he had 40 games of bad QB play from 3 scrubs out of his 270 games. Why should we treat him as pathetic and pretend he is better than his accomplishments?

 

Hint:  POOR BABY! Is never the greatest at anything.

[Mr Bad Example]

17 hours ago, DinoZ said:

Do this.....

 

Google Jason Witten stats.....ok?   You really seem to know anything about him.  Bone up on who he was, ok?

I know who he is. He's got a Frank Gore thing going. Good/VERY good player for a long time. 

[JonMcC2018]

I'd say he was a better TE than Gore was a RB. Larry Fitz probably a better comparison.

[DinoZ]

3 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

I know who he is. He's got a Frank Gore thing going. Good/VERY good player for a long time. 

So you know Witten is the FOURTH all time receptions leader then criticize me for having him at number two,,,,,,huh???

[Mr Bad Example]

4 hours ago, DinoZ said:

So you know Witten is the FOURTH all time receptions leader then criticize me for having him at number two,,,,,,huh???

Art Monk retired as the #1 all-time leading WR and I doubt he was on anyone's "Greatest WR of All-Time" lists even at that moment. 

[DinoZ]

3 hours ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Art Monk retired as the #1 all-time leading WR and I doubt he was on anyone's "Greatest WR of All-Time" lists even at that moment. 

Witten is an 11 time pro bowler,  two time All Pro, you knew all that???   Why do I doubt it?