Is Gronk the greatest TE ever?

[Mr Bad Example]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:12 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I think it would be interesting what would happen if Tony Gonzalez or Shannon Sharpe played their entire career in today's NFL with Tom Brady at QB.

Gronk blocks like an OL. The best thing you can say about Sharpe's blocking is that it was "functional." I think Gonzalez was a better blocker than Sharpe, but not anywhere near Gronk's level. 

[Mr Bad Example]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:10 PM, DinoZ said:

1.Tony Gonzalez

2.Jason Wittten

3.Antonio Gates

4.Shannon Sharpe

5.Travis Kelce

6.GRONK

7.John Mackey

8.Kellen Winslow

9.Ozzie Newsome

10.Mike Ditka

 

 

 

"Tell me you're a Dallas fan without telling me you're a Dallas fan" 

[BigTrav]

Welllll obviously I'm a Kelce homer. I think once it's all said and done we'll refer to Kelce as the best receiving TE ever, but Gronk as the best overall TE ever. His receiving was crazy good anyway at his peak.

I'll go Yes. Gronk is the greatest.

[scar988]

Tony Gonzalez is the GOAT. He literally changed the position from a primary blocking position to a primary receiving position. 

Gronk is the No. 2.

Gates to me is the No. 3.

Then Kellen Winslow Sr.

 

Then HUGE drop off.

[scar988]

27 minutes ago, BigTrav said:

Welllll obviously I'm a Kelce homer. I think once it's all said and done we'll refer to Kelce as the best receiving TE ever, but Gronk as the best overall TE ever. His receiving was crazy good anyway at his peak.

I'll go Yes. Gronk is the greatest.

I think Kyle Pitts has the ability to change that eventually. But I agree for now, Kelce could end up being the GOAT receiving TE ever.

[AngusMcFife]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:31 AM, Outpost31 said:

In 8 less seasons, Gronkowski had the same number of 1,000 yard seasons.

This isn't a very compelling argument.

Based on how he moves now, Gronk could play another 8 seasons and wouldn't come close to getting another 1000 yard season. He's become quite slow and unathletic, and rarely plays a full season.  

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, SkippyX said:

 

Yards per target

• Gronk 9.7
• Kelce 9.0
• Gates 8.1
• Gonzo 7.5

Yards per catch 

• Gronk 14.9
• Kelce 12.8
• Gates 12.4
• Gonzo 11.4

 

What some of your stats show is that Gronk ran deeper routes. That's not necessarily an indication of being better. 

You are obviously omitting rate stats such as receptions/game, or 1st downs/reception, which Gonzo is better at Gronk at. It's almost as if you are only posting stats that favor your position. Very clever. Never seen that before. 

You are also failing to account for era. The passing efficiency explosion that occurred after 2011 inflate Gronk's numbers tremendously. The fact that Gronk played in the era when he was considered a "defenseless receiver" and Gonzalez was not had a huge impact on the game.  

And that's also failing to account for Gronk playing with Brady. 

Also, using rate stats to compare Gronk and Gonzalez obviously favors Gronk, because Gonzalez's rate stats will be dragged down by his last 5 or 6 years when he was far removed from his prime. If Gronk played 8 more years, his rate stats would take a nose dive. 

I still rate Gronk as the GOAT TE. But if you lined up both of them vs a safety and get open, Gonzalez was flat out better. Quicker, more precise route runner, better hands. 

[SkippyX]

57 minutes ago, scar988 said:

Tony Gonzalez is the GOAT. He literally changed the position from a primary blocking position to a primary receiving position. 

Gronk is the No. 2.

Gates to me is the No. 3.

Then Kellen Winslow Sr.

 

Then HUGE drop off.

Weak Sauce Fake News

Mackey, Ditka, Newsome, Winslow, Sharpe and so on...

Bill Walsh was going to feature pass receiving TEs in the WCO but he had to wait until 1997 for Gonzo. 🤡

If you've never heard of Shannon Sharpe then maybe you should move on from talking about receiving TEs?

Sharpe was a dominant receiving TE with 4 first team all pro's before Gonzo did anything.

 

This is like saying Larry Centers revolutionized the RB position to be more involved in the passing game. 

[AngusMcFife]

Wrong thread

Edited December 12, 2021 by AngusMcFife
wrong thread

[rfournier103]

AT WORST Rob Gronkowski is number two behind Tony Gonzalez. But I think he’s better. So, yes. Gronkowski is the greatest TE of all time. 

[Hunter2_1]

18 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

What some of your stats show is that Gronk ran deeper routes. That's not necessarily an indication of being better. 

You are obviously omitting rate stats such as receptions/game, or 1st downs/reception, which Gonzo is better at Gronk at. It's almost as if you are only posting stats that favor your position. Very clever. Never seen that before. 

You are also failing to account for era. The passing efficiency explosion that occurred after 2011 inflate Gronk's numbers tremendously. The fact that Gronk played in the era when he was considered a "defenseless receiver" and Gonzalez was not had a huge impact on the game.  

And that's also failing to account for Gronk playing with Brady. 

Also, using rate stats to compare Gronk and Gonzalez obviously favors Gronk, because Gonzalez's rate stats will be dragged down by his last 5 or 6 years when he was far removed from his prime. If Gronk played 8 more years, his rate stats would take a nose dive. 

I still rate Gronk as the GOAT TE. But if you lined up both of them vs a safety and get open, Gonzalez was flat out better. Quicker, more precise route runner, better hands. 

He ran all kinds of routes. He often ran drags or crossers shallow then took it another 10-20 yards with the ball in hand...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCaVUCg2W_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFed5NPJo34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNf48GU4axk

 

I could watch his runs after the catch all day

[Mr Bad Example]

17 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Weak Sauce Fake News

Mackey, Ditka, Newsome, Winslow, Sharpe and so on...

Bill Walsh was going to feature pass receiving TEs in the WCO but he had to wait until 1997 for Gonzo. 🤡

If you've never heard of Shannon Sharpe then maybe you should move on from talking about receiving TEs?

Sharpe was a dominant receiving TE with 4 first team all pro's before Gonzo did anything.

 

This is like saying Larry Centers revolutionized the RB position to be more involved in the passing game. 

Heck, to say nothing of Winslow/Newsome/Christensen in the early to mid 80s. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said:

He ran all kinds of routes. He often ran drags or crossers shallow then took it another 10-20 yards with the ball in hand...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCaVUCg2W_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFed5NPJo34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNf48GU4axk

 

I could watch his runs after the catch all day

Yes, he's a tremendous receiving TE and the greatest TE of all time.

He just doesn't move with the same fluidity and quickness that Gonzalez did. Which is a big reason why Gronk was injured so much and Gonzalez was never. Gronk is kind of lumbering and is an easy target for DBs to hammer when he's running over the middle because his lateral quickness isn't that great. 

[Apparition]

I can see the case for Gonzalez over Gronk.

I can only laugh when people put anyone else ahead of him. 

Jason Witten had 75 TDs in 279 career games (including playoffs)
Shannon Sharpe had 66 in 222
Kelce has 62 in 136
Gates had 118 in 248
Gronk has 106 in 159

that's a higher rate than Jerry Rice

Edited December 13, 2021 by Apparition

[lancerman]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:58 PM, sammymvpknight said:

If you put Gonzo with Brady in the modern passing era, would he have been any worse than Gronk? The bar was set really high for a few seasons, but I think Gonzo would have likely put up comparable numbers. I just can’t say the same thing if Gronk played the same role as Gonzo. Plus, duration and consistency do matter. I’m going Gonzo. But I would go with Gronk pretty easily over the #3 guy. 

Yes he would have been worse than Gronk. Let's start with the fact that Gronk is a legit high level blocker. The Patriots at Gronk's peak at times would develop gameplans around using him as an extra blocker for both run and pass blocking in highly effective strategies. Tony would never be able to do that, so you'd lose a HUGE aspect of Gronk's value right there just from the jump of their difference in skill. 

People like to use the "look who his QB was" argument for Gonzalez because Gronk had better numbers with Brady. But Gonzalez got Matt Ryan and his stats didn't noticeably go up. People just use the excuse that Gonzalez was getting older by that point. But he didn't noticeably decline either. So the entire QB argument also conveniantly rests on the excuse that when he did get a QB Gonzalez declined to the point where it would make a difference... but he also didn't see a major stat decrease. It's just conveniant.