StatKing Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 20 hours ago, SkippyX said: Statistics are based off of the league average. A 99 rating in 2003 is 20.3 points or 25.9% above the average of 78.3. Only 3 teams had a passer rating above 92.3. DBs were allowed to hold like crazy that year. 11 teams had a rating above 92.3 in 2014. In 2014 Rodgers was also 2nd in passer rating. A non-QB JJ Watt was worthy of the MVP (Like Priest Holmes in 2003) His 112 passer rating was 23.1 points or 26% above the average of 88.9 (almost identical % to Manning 2003) Unlinke Manning in 2003, Rodgers did not lead the league in completion % and passing yards. he led in the Aaron Rodgers stat (low int%) Brees led the league in yards, Luck in TDs (Manning 2nd, Rodgers 3rd), Romo led in completion % and rating Rodgers 2014 was not special in any way. It was on par with Manning 2003. You can stay in your Rodgers cult all day long. It does not change reality. MVP isn't simply a bulk stat award. Anyone who's old enough to remember watching that season knows McNair was the best player in the league that year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malak1 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Someone once said, “You play to win the game.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Legacy will always be rings. Always. Because the superbowl is something you will remember, while individual awards fade with time. If I ask you who won the superbowl after the 92, 93 and 95 seasons - I am sure you could all easily answer the Cowboys with Troy Aikman. If I ask you who won the MVP those years, you would have to google. Or, stated another way, if I asked "name all the QBs with 2 or more superbowls" - chances are you could get reasonably close. If I asked about 2 or more MVPs? It would be extremely tough imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 This is a fascinating question and one that I think plays into the GOAT discussion in other sports. Personally I think the discussion of rings overall is useless without evaluating the weight of the rings, and the MVP. That said, I think football as the ultimate team game is the one sport that should lean heavily towards the MVP. If you give Rodgers those Patriots defenses they might not have lost a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 It's not even that Rodgers has only won 1 Super Bowl: It's the fact that he's only BEEN to one despite constantly having the #1 seed in his career. His actual performances in NFC Championship games have been mediocre as well. Peyton is widely regarded as a postseason underachiever and even he went to 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 22 hours ago, Malik said: It's not even that Rodgers has only won 1 Super Bowl: It's the fact that he's only BEEN to one despite constantly having the #1 seed in his career. His actual performances in NFC Championship games have been mediocre as well. Peyton is widely regarded as a postseason underachiever and even he went to 4. Brady is best case scenario for what a great HOF level QB paired with the most consistently good defenses can accomplish. Top 5 D Brady - 8 Rodgers - 1 (SB Win) Top 10 D Brady - 18!!! Rodgers - 3 Below Average D ( Not Top 15) Brady - 3 (Lowest ranked 17th) Rodgers - 6 Average Defensive Ranking Brady - 7 (Honestly this is pretty skewed with two defenses ranked 17th. The next lowest D for Brady was 15th for one season and 10 for a couple of others) Take out the two worse years and for his other 21 seasons his D averages to 6th. Rodgers only has 1 year where his D was 6th or better he won the SB that year. Rodgers - 15 ( If I play the same game of taking out the worse 2 seasons ranked on average drops to 13th. Not as bad as I was thinking but Brady has only had 3 seasons where his defense ranked 13 or worse and he didn't win the superbowl in any of those albeit he did make it to one with the 15th ranked D) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 QB's have the most control over the outcome of the game due to the nature of the position. Also as much as people like to pretend MVP is an individual award, there is a whole thread on this board where everyone arguing for Rodgers being MVP this year listed that his teams record and the seeding his team got was a primary factor in why he should win. So MVP is 100% determinitive of team performance and team outcomes. In fact Rodgers has an MVP in 2014 where the only reason it didn't go to Watt was because his team couldn't make the playoffs despite his amazing all time great season. It's also tough to because you don't actually know what the voters really think. Example the voters that gave Peyton Manning 4 MVP's and 5 First Team All Pros in the 2000's were the same voters that turned around at the end of the decade and said "you know Brady was actually the First Team All Decade QB of the 2000's" and then gave him that distinction. Realistically I think most people understand what matters in legacy in a general sense. A guy with one MVP vs a guy with one ring, people usually remember the ring more. But it depends because Marino exists. Not all MVP's or rings are equal either. Marino 84, Manning 04, Brady 07 and Rodgers 11 all ae worth more than your typical MVP. Those are all timer seasons. You can't pretend that Lamar's 2019 MVP in a vacuum is remotely the same. Likewise Manning has a 2nd ring where he was one of the worst players in the league and almost nobody uses that as an ehancement of his legacy. It's just a "well it's nice he got to go off in the sunset and his team could get him thee". So the answer is it's far more contextual and not cut and dry because they aren't all equal. I will say though on pure legacy, rings are overall more. Context: 1. We only talk about Aikman because of rings. That made him an easy First Ballot HOF'er 2. Eli will likely make the HOF because of rings 3. Rivers who was statistically better his entire career than Eli, likely will not make the HOF because he doesn't have rings. 5. Marino was one of the all time greatest players ever and he no longer is even in GOAT discussions because he just can't compare with everyone else on having titles. 6. Bradshaw has an MVP and 4 rings and nobody every talks about his MVP season and just judges him on how much they think he contributed to his rings. 7. Montana has 2 MVP's which is good but not Unitas/Farve/Manning level. Yet he was he was the presumed GOAT until Brady surpassed him due to ring count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 15 minutes ago, Spartacus said: Brady is best case scenario for what a great HOF level QB paired with the most consistently good defenses can accomplish. Top 5 D Brady - 8 Rodgers - 1 (SB Win) Top 10 D Brady - 18!!! Rodgers - 3 Below Average D ( Not Top 15) Brady - 3 (Lowest ranked 17th) Rodgers - 6 Average Defensive Ranking Brady - 7 (Honestly this is pretty skewed with two defenses ranked 17th. The next lowest D for Brady was 15th for one season and 10 for a couple of others) Take out the two worse years and for his other 21 seasons his D averages to 6th. Rodgers only has 1 year where his D was 6th or better he won the SB that year. Rodgers - 15 ( If I play the same game of taking out the worse 2 seasons ranked on average drops to 13th. Not as bad as I was thinking but Brady has only had 3 seasons where his defense ranked 13 or worse and he didn't win the superbowl in any of those albeit he did make it to one with the 15th ranked D) Is that scoring defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, SBLIII said: Is that scoring defense? PPG Allowed. Not the best defensive metric mind you but when your comparing two QBs who more often then not don't put there defenses in bad positions I think it does the trick and imo you would probably see similar with advanced metrics. Edited January 17, 2022 by Spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 6:46 PM, Tk3 said: The more of one you have, the fewer of the other you need. And I think having a few of both means more than having zero of one and a lot of the other I'd take a guy with 5 rings and 5 MVPs over Brady's 7/3 or Peyton's 2/5(7 All Pro) All that said, I'd lean MVP over the rings.. Rings are much more variable. You need a good team around you and a LOT of luck. If you're the best QB out there, it will show itself more naturally in MVPs than rings. Brady is the outlier, which is why he's the GOAT, but generally speaking, I think MVPs tell you more Since 2000, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Nick Foles have rings. The worst MVP winner in that same period is probably Matt Ryan, who is light years ahead of those other 3. You can get lucky and get on one list, but you can't be lucky enough to win MVP You can luck into an MVP. Elway got an MVP he didn't deserve because two 49ers split each others votes. Dan Fouts got robbed of an MVP that would have been a career centerpiece because the voters wanted to protest the shorten seasoned by giving it to a kicker. Manning got an MVP over Brees because his team won more down the stretch when they both were aiming for undefeated. Rodgers won an MVP over Watt because Watt's team just barely missed out on the playoffs through no fault of his. Even this year there is a big thread on board where the most common pro for Rodgers getting the MVP over his closest rival is that his team was able to secure the number 1 seed. So yeah you have to be at a certain level to win MVP, but there's a huge luck component that helps. For instance this year if Brady and Rodgers had their respective Saints games flipped on the schedule and had the same outcome, idk if Rodgers could endure having a bad performance like that so late in the season and it clearly hurt Brady to have a similar performance as Rodgers season opener that late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StatKing Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 23 hours ago, Malik said: It's not even that Rodgers has only won 1 Super Bowl: It's the fact that he's only BEEN to one despite constantly having the #1 seed in his career. His actual performances in NFC Championship games have been mediocre as well. Peyton is widely regarded as a postseason underachiever and even he went to 4. Constantly have the one seed? Packers have only had the one seed twice in his career. 2011 and 2020 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, Spartacus said: PPG Allowed. Not the best defensive metric mind you but when your comparing two QBs who more often then not don't put there defenses in bad positions I think it does the trick. It's a valid point. Rodgers is 10-2 when his defense allows less than 28 points and 1-7 when it doesn't. Brady is 29-5 when the defense allows less than 28 points and 6-5 when it doesn't. Montana won 16 playoff games in his career and never won when his defense allowed 28+. Peyton Manning was 9-8 in the playoffs when his defense allowed less than 28 points, which is terrible. So really objectively Rodgers should be seen as a greater QB than Manning but nobody will see it that way unless Rodgers wins at least another SB. He would be seen comfortably as the 2nd greatest QB of all time right now if he had better defenses, zero doubt in my mind. I put some blame on Rodgers because he came up short in some games he could have won despite not having the greatest defense like last year but he is definitely seen in a different light under different circumstances. Rodgers isn't a bad playoff QB but he needs to win another Super Bowl to change the perception in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, SBLIII said: It's a valid point. Rodgers is 10-2 when his defense allows less than 28 points and 1-7 when it doesn't. Brady is 29-5 when the defense allows less than 28 points and 6-5 when it doesn't. Montana won 16 playoff games in his career and never won when his defense allowed 28+. Peyton Manning was 9-8 in the playoffs when his defense allowed less than 28 points, which is terrible. So really objectively Rodgers should be seen as a greater QB than Manning but nobody will see it that way unless Rodgers wins at least another SB. He would be seen comfortably as the 2nd greatest QB of all time right now if he had better defenses, zero doubt in my mind. I put some blame on Rodgers because he came up short in some games he could have won despite not having the greatest defense like last year but he is definitely seen in a different light under different circumstances. Rodgers isn't a bad playoff QB but he needs to win another Super Bowl to change the perception in that regard. Don't get me wrong Bradys the GOAT but I think that takes some luck, a top 5 level skill at QB, and consistently great defenses to make him transcendent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFP7 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/16/2022 at 10:16 AM, Malik said: It's not even that Rodgers has only won 1 Super Bowl: It's the fact that he's only BEEN to one despite constantly having the #1 seed in his career. His actual performances in NFC Championship games have been mediocre as well. Peyton is widely regarded as a postseason underachiever and even he went to 4. does 3 1-seeds over 14 years as starter really equate to constantly? And that includes this year which maybe they make it, maybe they don't. There are plenty of things to use against Rodgers in the playoffs but this one seems random. It would have been a better argument to say that Rodgers hasn't gotten the 1 seed enough in his career. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bad Example Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 On 1/16/2022 at 9:10 AM, malak1 said: Someone once said, “You play to win the game.” Part of the joy of that quote is it came from thoroughly mediocre HC Herm Edwards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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