Week 9 GDT: Broncos @ Eagles

[Broncofan]

Re: Marshall, he wasn't good.  Simple as that.   Now, one explanation that's benign - he's playing hurt.  He's been on the injury list with a shoulder injury (originally in the BUF game) and he's looked like a 1-armed LB since then.   And with our ILB depth so bad, he's had little choice but to get out there.  So that's possible.

BUT...

The other issue with Marshall's bad play is he's lost a quarter-half step in coverage.  To me, THAT is a huge problem.   He was great in coverage in 2015, and 1H last year, as well.  What worries me is we might be seeing the wear and tear of playing in the LB position - there's a reason people in the 80's called the position "walking into a lion's cage wearing a pork chop suit" - it's a meat grinder.   So it could be a benign explanation, but also could be the worst - he's worn out ( @broncos67  keep in mind though that doubtful Trevathan any better, for the same reasons, we're already seeing it with him too).   If that's the case, we're REALLY in trouble - that would mean we'd need TWO starters to find next year.   Man, Elway, what were you thinking leaving the position unaddressed in any shape...

As for TJ Ward, @AkronsWitness I'm sorry, I have to disagree - he's not the answer.  He's routinely getting beat in coverage in Tampa, and playing part-time.    At least we're saving 4M in $ we can use next year.  Having him here wouldn't solve anything. 

The reality is we aren't even close to a complete team.  For all those guys who said "we're only a QB away" - the last 4 games should be a cold, hard, sobering look.  We need a RT, and hopefully our LT gets better (Bolles is a rookie, and deserves time to develop, today was rough, no way around it, he struggled mightily).   We need a complete overhaul of ILB (not just Todd Davis).

Going to be a long season.   Have to think like a rebuilder - hopefully we can reload quickly enough to compete next year, because our core D's window closes after next year.   Man.

[AkronsWitness]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Re: Marshall, he wasn't good.  Simple as that.   Now, one explanation that's benign - he's playing hurt.  He's been on the injury list with a shoulder injury (originally in the BUF game) and he's looked like a 1-armed LB since then.   And with our ILB depth so bad, he's had little choice but to get out there.  So that's possible.

BUT...

The other issue with Marshall's bad play is he's lost a quarter-half step in coverage.  To me, THAT is a huge problem.   He was great in coverage in 2015, and 1H last year, as well.  What worries me is we might be seeing the wear and tear of playing in the LB position - there's a reason people in the 80's called the position "walking into a lion's cage wearing a pork chop suit" - it's a meat grinder.   So it could be a benign explanation, but also could be the worst - he's worn out ( @broncos67  keep in mind though that doubtful Trevathan any better, for the same reasons, we're already seeing it with him too).   If that's the case, we're REALLY in trouble - that would mean we'd need TWO starters to find next year.   Man, Elway, what were you thinking leaving the position unaddressed in any shape...

As for TJ Ward, @AkronsWitness I'm sorry, I have to disagree - he's not the answer.  He's routinely getting beat in coverage in Tampa, and playing part-time.    At least we're saving 4M in $ we can use next year.  Having him here wouldn't solve anything. 

The reality is we aren't even close to a complete team.  For all those guys who said "we're only a QB away" - the last 4 games should be a cold, hard, sobering look.  We need a RT, and hopefully our LT gets better (Bolles is a rookie, and deserves time to develop, today was rough, no way around it, he struggled mightily).   We need a complete overhaul of ILB (not just Todd Davis).

Going to be a long season.   Have to think like a rebuilder - hopefully we can reload quickly enough to compete next year, because our core D's window closes after next year.   Man.

Im not saying the Broncos are missing TJ Wards actual play (though Simmons has been far from spectacular) but they are missing his grit, energy and leadership he brought to the defense. He was the glue guy in the secondary regardless of playing ability and they are strongly missing that piece right now.

[Broncofan]

Just now, AkronsWitness said:

Im not saying the Broncos are missing TJ Wards actual play (though Simmons has been far from spectacular) but they are missing his grit, energy and leadership he brought to the defense. He was the glue guy in the secondary regardless of playing ability and they are strongly missing that piece right now.

Sure but if his play sucked, it wouldn't matter.   TJ Ward of 2017 really doesn't belong on a starter's position, no matter who the D is.   

[AkronsWitness]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Sure but if his play sucked, it wouldn't matter.   TJ Ward of 2017 really doesn't belong on a starter's position, no matter who the D is.   

I disagree, by no means was he a pro bowl level player anymore, but he was solid and not a huge liability. Wade put players in positions to do what they are best at which involvd him a lot more in the box which was his strength and he was darn good at it. Having Simmons back there doesnt give me any sort of assurance either and I dont know if Ward right now could easily have the same impact as Simmons but in order to find that out---the Broncos sacraficed all of the intangibles Ward brought that Simmons doesnt have yet.

[BroncoSojia]

18 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Re: Marshall, he wasn't good.  Simple as that.   Now, one explanation that's benign - he's playing hurt.  He's been on the injury list with a shoulder injury (originally in the BUF game) and he's looked like a 1-armed LB since then.   And with our ILB depth so bad, he's had little choice but to get out there.  So that's possible.

BUT...

The other issue with Marshall's bad play is he's lost a quarter-half step in coverage.  To me, THAT is a huge problem.   He was great in coverage in 2015, and 1H last year, as well.  What worries me is we might be seeing the wear and tear of playing in the LB position - there's a reason people in the 80's called the position "walking into a lion's cage wearing a pork chop suit" - it's a meat grinder.   So it could be a benign explanation, but also could be the worst - he's worn out ( @broncos67  keep in mind though that doubtful Trevathan any better, for the same reasons, we're already seeing it with him too).   If that's the case, we're REALLY in trouble - that would mean we'd need TWO starters to find next year.   Man, Elway, what were you thinking leaving the position unaddressed in any shape...

As for TJ Ward, @AkronsWitness I'm sorry, I have to disagree - he's not the answer.  He's routinely getting beat in coverage in Tampa, and playing part-time.    At least we're saving 4M in $ we can use next year.  Having him here wouldn't solve anything. 

The reality is we aren't even close to a complete team.  For all those guys who said "we're only a QB away" - the last 4 games should be a cold, hard, sobering look.  We need a RT, and hopefully our LT gets better (Bolles is a rookie, and deserves time to develop, today was rough, no way around it, he struggled mightily).   We need a complete overhaul of ILB (not just Todd Davis).

Going to be a long season.   Have to think like a rebuilder - hopefully we can reload quickly enough to compete next year, because our core D's window closes after next year.   Man.

I don't think we're a QB away per say, but it is the biggest need on our team. We need to trade up for Darnold, or just stay where we are and take Mayfield. We need that position squared away so we don't need an absolute complete team in order to compete. If we have to give up a future 1st and change, then so be it. I don't think the Eagles and Rams are complaining about their trade ups right now. 

[Broncofan]

2 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

I don't think we're a QB away per say, but it is biggest need on our team. We need to trade up for Darnold, or just stay where we are and take Mayfield. We need that position squared away so we don't need an absolute complete team in order to compete. If we have to give up a future 1st and change, then so be it. I don't think the Eagles and Rams are complaining about their trade ups right now. 

We don't need to trade up if the price is too high, or the candidate is too iffy.   We already did that for Lynch.  RGIII the other classic overpay.

Nothing should be off the table, but over-reaching is even worse.  It's what we did for Lynch, and what teams do all the time.   If you find the right guy, or the right price, sure.    The problem with a Darnold scenario is that it's likely WAY more than a future 1st - other teams have us sorely outgunned.

[BroncoSojia]

Just now, Broncofan said:

We don't need to trade up if the price is too high, or the candidate is too iffy.   We already did that for Lynch.

Nothing should be off the table, but over-reaching is even worse.  It's what we did for Lynch, and what teams do all the time.   If you find the right guy, or the right price, sure.  

I'm of the opinion that Darnold is a franchise QB. His awareness, poise, and instincts during high pressure moments is what sold me on him. He has "it". Mayfield is similar, but I think Darnold is a better prospect. I'd be happy with either one.

[broncosfan07]

Everyone predicts us to lose badly, we lose badly and people are outraged.

 

I mean truth of the matter is for us to make the playoffs the team was going have to play REALLY well and have a lot of things go right and maybe squeak in at 9-7. That's obviously not the case and we all knew the offense was a disaster regardless of who plays QB, the only thing differently Brock can do is at least target Sanders and DT more, the best we can hope is he can give us another start and we give Lynch the rest of the season to see if there's any real potential growth there. And if anyone expected the defense to not have a down game at some point in the last 4 seasons well I can't help you there, eventually even elite defenses have a really poor showing.

 

It's obvious this season is lost and Elway needs to take a step back and make a lot of changes to the roster and front office/scouting. Coaching staff isn't going to get changed much if at all other than hopefully Olivio after one season unless we go winless the rest of the way. 

[Broncofan]

5 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

I'm of the opinion that Darnold is a franchise QB. His awareness, poise, and instincts during high pressure moments is what sold me on him. He has "it". Mayfield is similar, but I think Darnold is a better prospect. I'd be happy with either one.

I need to see more, but I think his struggles this year are much like Jameis Winston in his final year - trying to do too much on a bad team. There's talk he may want to return (unfinished business, get a BCS bid for USC - which to me is crazy, USC is very flawed and their freshman class isn't fixing their issues).  Either way, though, assuming he declares for the draft, the issue is that if CLE, or BUF, or NYG feel the same way - they have us outgunned in a MAJOR way.   I don't think we can seriously match those guys - and as the saying goes, it only takes one.

Your Mayfield scenario has a lot of legs, though, in terms of being there at our likely slot (do not see Darnold or Rosen there, going top 5 if they are declaring).   Need to see more of him to form an opinion.

[germ-x]

No QB=No Bueno.

[broncos67]

I don't understand why it's a given that this coaching staff remains. If Denver gets blown out a few more times, and especially if those are at home or against division teams, Vance is gone. Regardless of the challenges on the roster, he just seems overwhelmed by the responsibility of coaching. He's lost the locker room, say what you will, but if you read quotes from Wolfe, Harris (who in particular has been very vocal) and some of the other guys, they just don't seem to have any confidence right now. Vance trips over himself routinely in press conferences, the Denver media is turning on him- in all, it's not looking good.

If they get beat down by NE next Sunday, it's going to be hard for him to keep his job past this year. Right or wrong, it just is. Elway has shown that he'll do whatever he has to do. Would you hitch yourself to Vance? I wouldn't. This guy was supposed to be a master motivator- even if this team has less talent, I'd expect given what we were sold about Joseph, that he would have them "kicking and screaming." They aren't doing that. There are teams with less talent than Denver playing better. At some point, it's on the coaching staff and that's Vance's main responsibility.

[germ-x]

13 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I don't understand why it's a given that this coaching staff remains. If Denver gets blown out a few more times, and especially if those are at home or against division teams, Vance is gone. Regardless of the challenges on the roster, he just seems overwhelmed by the responsibility of coaching. He's lost the locker room, say what you will, but if you read quotes from Wolfe, Harris (who in particular has been very vocal) and some of the other guys, they just don't seem to have any confidence right now. Vance trips over himself routinely in press conferences, the Denver media is turning on him- in all, it's not looking good.

If they get beat down by NE next Sunday, it's going to be hard for him to keep his job past this year. Right or wrong, it just is. Elway has shown that he'll do whatever he has to do. Would you hitch yourself to Vance? I wouldn't. This guy was supposed to be a master motivator- even if this team has less talent, I'd expect given what we were sold about Joseph, that he would have them "kicking and screaming." They aren't doing that. There are teams with less talent than Denver playing better. At some point, it's on the coaching staff and that's Vance's main responsibility.

Up until today I haven't had an issue with the coaching outside of STs.  As far as the coaching has went I've thought they've done as good a job as possible.  Up until today the defense has been stellar (#1 in the NFL) I've thought McCoy has been solid considering he doesn't have a competent QB, and Joseph has had a few head scratcher calls, but until today this team has competed for 4 quarters.

Today, however, Joseph seemed like a cry baby who was really pressing to get the most out of his guys and couldn't get it. Every time they showed him on TV he was complaining and emotional.

[broncosfan07]

Firing the coaching staff is nothing more than Elway refusing to accept any blame himself. 

 

We've changed coaching staffs 3 times now in 4 seasons, how much more are you guys going to complain about coaching before accepting there is not that much talent on the team between the elite players and the practice squad? The FO has failed in drafting young players to fill the spots left by previous talented starters and resorted to trying to fix a broken leg with a band aid with cheaper, hopeful FA signings. We can keep changing staffs but unless the FO changes and the players change the results don't change. First it was Fox doesn't that that kicking and screaming, then it's Kubiak has a pathetic anemic offense and the stress wasn't good for his health, now it's back to fire them already. 

 

Not to say the coaching shouldn't be better and today was pathetic but I'd rather give a coaching staff a chance past 8 games when McDaniels got 1.5 seasons. Now come next season and were seeing performances like this then yeah at that point going to be really hard to argue for them to stay.

[Broncofan]

FTR I was supportive of Kyle Shanahan, and keeping Wade as DC.  That was choice #1 for me.

Having said that, VJ may not be the solution, but he's not the problem here.  Elway's roster construction is the key here.  At least for the OL, QB, and our ILB issues.  Which are our biggest roster weaknesses.  As much as I didn't think the coaches haven't distinguished themselves, we have to see them given actual tools to use to see if they can make the O work. 

Now, Olivo & ST, that is totally fair to call into account.  ST is about coaching and preparation, the talent differences aren't nearly as big there.   Olivo should be history if we do not turn this around in a big way in the 2H, regardless of how we perform in the W-L column.

[AnAngryAmerican]

Vance needs to go. Bad hire when it was made, looks worse now. 

McCoy, Musgrave and Davidson need to go. 

Olivo needs to go. Yesterday. 

Elway needs to clean house in the front office. Get rid of Russell, Heckert, Thewes and all of the scouts. 

Then the Bowlen Family and Ellis need to give Elway two years to get back to the Super Bowl. If not, then Elway goes.