Week 9 GDT: Broncos @ Eagles

[SilverNBlackFan]

4 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

Broncos fans are not 'spoiled' - Broncos fans have expectations, expectations mirrored by the franchise. Failure is not an option and not acceptable. Yes - every team has a 'down' year - but accepting a 'down' year leads to multiple down years (like the Raiders historically have had). And it is not like the Raiders have been that much better this year - they are only a half a game ahead of the Broncos.

Nobody is saying Broncos fans should "accept" a down year. But the reality is, this is the NFL. The league with the most parity in sports and it's bound to happen, especially if you have one of the worst QB situations in the league like Denver does. Maybe you should adjust your expectations to something more realistic and realize that the team was never going to go far with No QB. And I said nothing about the Raiders. We are a bad team also if that makes you feel better.

 

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You are right that the defence cannot continue to carry the Broncos - but Joseph and his coaching staff (McCoy and Musgrave) were brought in specifically to fix the offence. The reality is that with less talent Kubiak did a better job last year with the offence than Joseph and his staff have been doing this year - and that is not acceptable.

So wait, you're sharpening your pitchfork because Vance Joseph (a defensive coach) hasn't done as good a job as Kubiak (career offensive guy) with the offense? Um okay. It's not like the broncos offense was good under Kubiak either. Actually, if you look at the #'s from last year, the offense has actually improved this year. (Almost 20 more rush YPG, Slightly less passing yards PG, More total YPG from the offense this year)

The truth is when you have no viable starter at QB, there is no quick fix to the offense. So if you expected that, then that's on you for having unrealistic expectations. Doesn't matter if the coach is Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, or VJ if you don't have a QB.

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The Broncos are a good team - they have one of the best defences - and despite what you say, they have some talent on the offence (Thomas, Sanders, Leary, Paradis, Booker, Anderson). If you look at the comments by Broncos fans you will see significant criticism being levelled against Elway - and one of those criticisms is the hiring of Vance Joseph as HC. Joseph is at fault - he was brought in to be a leader of men - and he is leading them down a blind alley. He has shown zero attributes to suggest that this will change - and there is a developing downward momentum that seems to be getting unstoppable the way things are going. 

None of those guys you just listed are great players. As a rival fan, the only player i would like to have on my team from those listed is D. Thomas. And he's not nearly as good as he used to be. The talent on offense isn't good, hell It made the Raiders defense look good lol. And that's not me hating im just being honest. 

What you say about VJ may end up being true. But he, like any coach, deserves time to prove why the GM was right or wrong in hiring him. It's very possible he's not the right guy. But it's just bad precedent to fire a guy one year in, especially when you have had as much turnover as the Broncos have had in the last 4 years. Great tradition or not, future potential head coaches around the league will start to shy away from Denver if this continues to happen.

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If the team was just running out of steam and Joseph was demonstrating that he knew what to do to fix it - then by all means keep him in the job. But this is not the case - Joseph appears completely lost and hasn't demonstrated a clue how to fix the problem. Elway is not immune from this - he has not fixed the holes in the roster (particularly on the offence) and has ignored solutions to the problem (getting Whitworth at LT could have led to avoiding the signing Watson and opened up the prospect of BPA in the draft - signing Kaepernick when he had the opportunity could have avoided the disaster that is now the Siemian/Osweiler/Lynch triumvirate - etc). 

And that's all im saying. Elway deserves a lot of blame in this. He hired the coach, he's responsible for the roster. He hasn't drafted well on offense. He's alienated key players on the defense.

If VJ goes down as the scapegoat, Elway should be on a very tight leash going forward imo. Most GMs don't get to hire a 4th coaching staff...

[champ11]

@SilverNBlackFan has been spot on in the thread, tbh. Sanders is a great player IMO, but he's not necessarily a guy that is gonna stress another team out, so that's fair. 

[broncos67]

He's spot on. This offense doesn't have talent. Broncos fans grossly overstate the true talent level of their offense. No QBs. Two WRs that are good players but are both aging. No TEs. No above average RBs. A piss poor OL. Where is all the talent?

[broncofan48]

45 minutes ago, champ11 said:

@SilverNBlackFan has been spot on in the thread, tbh. Sanders is a great player IMO, but he's not necessarily a guy that is gonna stress another team out, so that's fair. 

And honestly the core guys, like Sanders, the ones on Defense and Offense who people are mentioning are getting close to 30 so how much longer can we rely on these guys?  A full on rebuild/reload of talent is needed.  Other than New England, the teams that  compete for Championships and win like us and Seattle had a bunch of high end talent on cheap deals.  Now the cap is tight and the talent level is subpar.  

[AnAngryAmerican]

I think, barring some McDaniels-level embarrassment to the franchise (a cheating scandal or something similar) there is no way Vance gets fired this year, especially during the season. I also think, unless we lose out and finish 3-13, it's highly-unlikely he gets fired after the season. There are three reasons for this; one, Elway recognizes there are some talent deficiencies on this team, two, he believes in this staff to at least some extent and figures to be willing to give them one more shot (think how he kept Fox & Co. for 2014 even though he really didn't want to) and, most importantly, three, cheapskate Joe Ellis won't want to be on the hook for all those coach's contracts plus more money for a whole new staff. 

That being said, I wouldn't have a problem if Vance was fired yesterday, same goes for McCoy. I think it would be justified. What @broncos67 said is 100% correct - Vance was the wrong hire and the time and has done nothing that should convince any honest observer otherwise, he is totally over his head. The reg flags - limited experience, questionable pedigree, off-field mistakes in his youth, his team's showing in the playoffs last year - (which some of us pointed out) were all there and either ignored or dismissed by Elway and excused away by the team's apologists and media cheerleaders. A lot red flags, in different ways, were there with McCoy as well but were similarly excused. 

I'd love to see what this team would be doing with Dave Toub and the staff he could have assembled or, what was my preference, a Kyle Shanahan with Wade Phillips staying as DC team. 

[BroncosFan2010]

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I'd love to see what this team would be doing with Dave Toub and the staff he could have assembled or, what was my preference, a Kyle Shanahan with Wade Phillips staying as DC team. 

Hell, I am starting to think the not-talked-about idea of Joe Woods getting a bump from DB Coach to Head Coach, retaining Wade (As the highest paid DC in the NFL, to placate the Woods promotion) and still bringing on McCoy could have been the best move. Woods has been great this year, but keeping Wade would give us that near fatherly, been through it all type presence in the locker room when (if) we started loosing games.

IDK, I just don't see what Vance EVER brought to the table. He has always stood out about as much as a pine tree in the forest. I honestly think he was just a fun guy to have cocktails with an Elway went off that. Something random and personal must have made John gravitate to this guy for 2-3 years.

[champ11]

1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I think, barring some McDaniels-level embarrassment to the franchise (a cheating scandal or something similar) there is no way Vance gets fired this year, especially during the season. I also think, unless we lose out and finish 3-13, it's highly-unlikely he gets fired after the season. There are three reasons for this; one, Elway recognizes there are some talent deficiencies on this team, two, he believes in this staff to at least some extent and figures to be willing to give them one more shot (think how he kept Fox & Co. for 2014 even though he really didn't want to) and, most importantly, three, cheapskate Joe Ellis won't want to be on the hook for all those coach's contracts plus more money for a whole new staff. 

That being said, I wouldn't have a problem if Vance was fired yesterday, same goes for McCoy. I think it would be justified. What @broncos67 said is 100% correct - Vance was the wrong hire and the time and has done nothing that should convince any honest observer otherwise, he is totally over his head. The reg flags - limited experience, questionable pedigree, off-field mistakes in his youth, his team's showing in the playoffs last year - (which some of us pointed out) were all there and either ignored or dismissed by Elway and excused away by the team's apologists and media cheerleaders. A lot red flags, in different ways, were there with McCoy as well but were similarly excused. 

I'd love to see what this team would be doing with Dave Toub and the staff he could have assembled or, what was my preference, a Kyle Shanahan with Wade Phillips staying as DC team. 

They'd still suck

[Broncofan]

@SilverNBlackFan's analysis is really good here.  And it's not just a bitter OAK fan responding, to be clear - if you watch DEN games with non-DEN fans regularly, the same themes come through.  Home team fans always overrate their own talent.   

Our OL talent sucks, our QB is a black hole, and our skills positions except DT are either beyond their prime, and DT isn't a true alpha receiver like an AJ Green, never was.   Our coaches can't make miracles happen there.  Our D does need to show up and our ST coaches should be fired if we're not better there.

[1234567]

This has been a long train wreck coming though. PFM masked a lot of shortcomings on our offense with his ability to read defenses before the snap. He made DT look unstoppable, made Sanders look like a borderline #1, and could make ANY tight end look like a weapon. Hell, he even made Knowshon Moreno look like a really dangerous running back. We don't have a QB who can do that anymore, and now the true level of talent on the offense has been shining nice and bright for 2 + seasons. Fact is, this offense has literally zero dominant players on it. DT is the closest thing we have and he's almost 30. What's discouraging is how badly Elway and Co have whiffed on drafting offensive talent during that stretch. 

[Joe_is_the_best]

I think we're being a bit bipolar as a forum, and I'm guilty too. But I feel like some of us are being a little disingenuous.

You can't really believe both:

A) Our offensive talent is good enough to expect a better result than we're getting or 

B) The talent is so bad that it's a lost cause.

If you believe A, you can't believe B. If you believe B, then the blame should be on Elway, not the coaches.

The reality is somewhere in the middle.

[jolly red giant]

2 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said:

I think we're being a bit bipolar as a forum, and I'm guilty too. But I feel like some of us are being a little disingenuous.

You can't really believe both:

A) Our offensive talent is good enough to expect a better result than we're getting or 

B) The talent is so bad that it's a lost cause.

If you believe A, you can't believe B. If you believe B, then the blame should be on Elway, not the coaches.

The reality is somewhere in the middle.

I would be a supporter of (A) - Elway did improve the OL - he brought in Leary and he drafted Bolles. He made a blunder with Watson. Our Raiders contributor quoted stats about last season and this season - but stats don't tell the story. Kubiak kept the Broncos relatively competitive for most of the season with less talent - the Broncos have not been at the races in recent weeks. Again - Kubiak may be an offensive coach but McCoy and Musgrave were brought in specifically to do that job.

Turnovers and penalties have been major problems this season and both problems in my opinion ultimately come down to the coaches - it is their responsibility to have the team playing disciplined and controlled football - and they have failed. 

The team has a lot of holes - and that is down to Elway - but this team is also capable of more than Joseph is getting out if them. The guy looks like he is in over his head and the team look lost as a result.

 

and when Joseph gets the sack - and he will get the sack whether it is this season or next season - the Elway better sack Russell with him or else Elway should join him as he heads out the door.

[The Helicopter]

If Siemian could lead this team to that 3-0 start before his wheels fell off, then i’m inclined d to believe we’re only a GOOD QB away from playoff contention. That being said, Lynch better be ready to roll next year or we’ll have to trade for a proven QB. The route to draft another, high R1, still comes with a learning curve.

[thebestever6]

5 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

If Siemian could lead this team to that 3-0 start before his wheels fell off, then i’m inclined d to believe we’re only a GOOD QB away from playoff contention. That being said, Lynch better be ready to roll next year or we’ll have to trade for a proven QB. The route to draft another, high R1, still comes with a learning curve.

Thats really what the rest of 2017 should be see what we have in Lynch. If not lose out and get a competent guy to come in here. I'm tired of musical chairs. It seems Peyton was the calm before the storm.

Also that's what im reffering to a qb away from playoffs.  This team is too young at key spots with a brand new head coach to win it.

[Broncofan]

36 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

If Siemian could lead this team to that 3-0 start before his wheels fell off, then i’m inclined d to believe we’re only a GOOD QB away from playoff contention. That being said, Lynch better be ready to roll next year or we’ll have to trade for a proven QB. The route to draft another, high R1, still comes with a learning curve.

Except take a closer look at our W's:

1.  LAC - at home, and we're only a blocked FG from OT.  LAC didn't have Perryman at ILB, and lost their 1st and 2nd round picks for the game, who were supposed to upgrade the WR and OL corps significantly.

2.  DAL - OK, full marks there.  Nothing but good things.

3.  OAK - we can now see that OAK is a very, very flawed team - awful D, and their OL has leaks - and it's what got Carr killed.  Carr out, easy pickings..and yet we saw that our O wasn't that good even then.   Good enough to win - but we've seen O's do far more vs. that D. 

And then let's look at our L's:

1.  BUF - they just outplayed us on both sides of the line.   Fully earned.   Crazy part - we limited their major weapon, Shady McCoy, in the run game but he and Charles Clay killed us at key moments.  

2.  NYG - at home, we got schooled in every way.  Our run D got smashed in the mouth, and Evan Engram ran wild vs. our pass D.

3.  LAC - rematch, and it wasn't close.   Our D came up to play, but man our O and ST were just awful.  

4.  KC - butt.kicking.  Our D was the only reason we even had a chance, although yet again TE killed us.

5.  PHI - double.butt.kicking.  This time our D let up, and didn't show up...but they have been worn out.   

So, we've really earned full marks for 1 out of our 3 W's.   And been far out-matched by 5 teams, one at home where we had a bye.   

Yes, a QB helps us a lot, we'd be silly to think otherwise - but we're a team that relies on home-field advantage and an elite D to win games.    We're a good QB from being a .500 team.    If we really want to contend, we need to be an overall better team across the board.    Keep drafting overall BPA for the next 2+ years, forget about position, and get smart in FA like you used to.  Figure out QB for sure, but let's stop the illusion we're just 1 guy away.  We're not.

I really wish it was otherwise, I really do.

[BroncoSojia]

A Raiders fan as the voice of reason. We have truly hit rock bottom.