Russell Wilson traded to Broncos for Noah Fant, Shelby Harris, Drew Lock, two 1sts, two 2nds

[Danger]

Just now, Forge said:

You already offered a 4th!! No take backs

[NVRamsFan]

8 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Where did I say that?

If you watch Metcalf, Lockett, Jeudy and Sutton and come away thinking the latter are even in the same conversation as the former, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Your argument is solid though - it allows for any WR who plays with a bad QB to be considered among the best with absolutely zero proof that they belong in the conversation.

I'll take Denver's weapons every day.

[FrantikRam]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

DK Metcalf had one monster year and two good years, but nothing great.  He's got a career catch rate of 60.3%.  For comparison, his catch rate would rank 161st among all RB/WR/TE.  That's not good.  His career yards per target is 8.9, which would be T-28th.  He's a high-end #2 WR.  Tim Patrick has similar effiency only he's not force fed throws like Metcalf.  Lockett is better then Sutton.  If I were to rank the WRs, I'd rank them: Lockett, Sutton, Metcalf, Patrick, Jeudy, and then whoever WR3 is.

 

So just to be clear - Metcalf had better numbers because Wilson is a better QB.

And also, Metcalf has a worse catch percentage because....not Wilson? Seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, FrantikRam said:

So just to be clear - Metcalf had better numbers because Wilson is a better QB.

And also, Metcalf has a worse catch percentage because....not Wilson? Seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

Metcalf has averaged 119 passing attempts since the Seahawks took him.  Patrick has averaged 82 the last season.  If you don't understand why Metcalf's bulk numbers are better, I can't help you.

[SaveOurSonics]

21 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I think there's a very good argument that you could argue that Sutton/Patrick/Jeudy >>> Lockett/Metcalf/Swain (or whoever WR3 is).

Regardless of what you think about the talent level of those two groups, I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the Denver trio is a better fit for Russell's style than that Seattle duo + any third option. I can't stress enough that over the last 2+ years, Russ has been unwilling to test DBs on 50/50 balls. Maybe that's Pete Carroll neutering his risk taking ability. Maybe that's PTSD from dreadful INTs to Malcolm Butler and Prince Amukamara. It's the reason why DK Metcalf was largely going ignored throughout games even despite his ability to win more often than not in those situations. 

Courtland Sutton and Tim Patrick do not create the separation that DK Metcalf does. On top of that, you could argue that -- simply on sample size alone -- Tyler Lockett is the game's best WR in scramble drill situations, which fits perfectly with what makes Russell so effective. What receiver gives him that same presence in Denver? Maybe Jeudy. Maybe Hamler. We haven't seen that from them yet, so time will tell. What I can tell you is that neither of them will be better than Lockett at it.

This FO may have a lot of warts, but I can't agree with anyone who says they didn't surround Russ with great fits for his style of play at any given time. Lockett, DK, Flash, Golden, Jimmy G., Paul Richardson, etc. 

 

 

That's the only practical way to weigh this. Which group caters to the QBs skills more. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by SaveOurSonics

[CWood21]

 

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Anyone know what picks exactly were traded for, this year or future drafts?

 

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Regardless of what you think about the talent level of those two groups, I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the Denver trio is a better fit for Russell's style than that Seattle duo + any third option. I can't stress enough that over the last 2+ years, Russ has been unwilling to test DBs on 50/50 balls. Maybe that's Pete Carroll neutering his risk taking ability. Maybe that's PTSD from dreadful INTs to Malcolm Butler and Prince Amukamara. It's the reason why DK Metcalf was largely going ignored throughout games even despite his ability to win more often than not in those situations. 

I think you could argue for either tbh.  That was the part I had issues with.  The reality is that DK Metcalf got opportunities that Tim Patrick didn't.  Do I think Metcalf is more talented then Patrick?  Absolutely, but I don't think the gap is all that big.  You can say what you want, but there's not a SINGLE team that would want Drew Lock as their starting QB instead of Russell Wilson.  Look at Allen Robinson as a example of how diminished production is a byproduct of mediocre QB play.

 

[BullsandBroncos]

5 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Regardless of what you think about the talent level of those two groups, I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the Denver trio is a better fit for Russell's style than that Seattle duo + any third option. I can't stress enough that over the last 2+ years, Russ has been unwilling to test DBs on 50/50 balls. Maybe that's Pete Carroll neutering his risk taking ability. Maybe that's PTSD from dreadful INTs to Malcolm Butler and Prince Amukamara. It's the reason why DK Metcalf was largely going ignored throughout games even despite his ability to win more often than not in those situations. 

Courtland Sutton and Tim Patrick do not create the separation that DK Metcalf does. On top of that, you could argue that -- simply on sample size alone -- Tyler Lockett is the game's best WR in scramble drill situations, which fits perfectly with what makes Russell so effective. What receiver gives him that same presence in Denver? Maybe Jeudy. Maybe Hamler. We haven't seen that from them yet, so time will tell. What I can tell you is that neither of them will be better than Lockett at it.

This FO may have a lot of warts, but I can't agree with anyone who says they didn't surround Russ with great fits for his style of play at any given time. Lockett, DK, Flash, Golden, Jimmy G., Paul Richardson, etc. 

no one is saying that seattles players are bad. We are saying that Denver's aren't as bad as he's making them out to be. Not even close.

[Ozzy]

12 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Considering this is happening shortly after the Combine, you'd like to think that the FO has someone(s) in mind to serve as the replacement. To your point, they may have walked away actually really liking their options in this years crop. 

True but even if they do not, so what they start Lock this next year and if they do not like him his contract is up after next season.  Then go for a QB in 2023.  Or get a QB guy this year, sit him and if he beats out Lock great if not so what.

Will be curious what they do with Geno Smith who is not under contract for 2022, same with Eason but Geno was not awful last year when he filled in and Eason has a ton of arm talent.  

 

Really it is great, better than wasting time with Wilson if he wanted to leave which clearly he did.  

 

Fant is a free agent after next year also, Shelby Harris is the only one they are stuck with beyond 2022 but so what he is not a terrible player and has decent production and good ability.  

 

 

11 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Okay, here's the skill players I would take over Denvers group. Feel free to refute whoever you want:

Chiefs

Chargers

Rams

Niners

Seahawks

Bills

Titans

Bengals

Cowboys

Bucs

Panthers

Packers

Vikings

Steelers

 

And an argument could be made for the Ravens when full healthy, although that's comparable IMO. Browns are also comparable with Hunt/Chubb. Falcons with Pitts/Ridley (suspension notwithstanding). Saints with Kamara/Thomas.

 

That puts the Broncos anywhere between 15 and 20.

Refute away if there's one in there you don't agree with.

Wilson is NOT Peyton Manning. He's not going to turn Thomas and Sanders into....well what they became. That's not the level of QB Wilson is.

True but last year when they had Gordon and Fant and the rest, they were pretty damn solid.  Sure next year it is a bit different but many will be greatly improved because they have a great QB now, Jeudy should do awesome with a new QB.

 

Even next year KJ Hamler when healthy could be a very solid WR, Jeudy has a ton of ability, Sutton is a big time athlete and really has never played with a great QB yet, Patrick has wildly overachieved and is a solid WR, Seth Williams has a lot of potential, and Okwuegbunam is very talented just has not reached his potential yet.  Also Javonte Williams is easily one of the top young backs in the league and should be even better with Gordon gone.  Not to mention they have a solid young OL with Risner, Cushenberry, Bolles, Muti and Meinerz.  That is really a great young OL with a ton of talent.  All they need to do is fine a solid RT and could do so in the draft this year.  

[SaveOurSonics]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I think you could argue for either tbh.  That was the part I had issues with.  The reality is that DK Metcalf got opportunities that Tim Patrick didn't.  Do I think Metcalf is more talented then Patrick?  Absolutely, but I don't think the gap is all that big.  You can say what you want, but there's not a SINGLE team that would want Drew Lock as their starting QB instead of Russell Wilson.  Look at Allen Robinson as a example of how diminished production is a byproduct of mediocre QB play.

 

 

1 minute ago, BullsandBroncos said:

no one is saying that seattles players are bad. We are saying that Denver's aren't as bad as he's making them out to be. Not even close.

 

Sounds like I may have missed the point. I'd agree that Denver's targets are not a significant drop off from Seattle's. 

[Forge]

Everything about this is kind of amazing  lol 

[BullsandBroncos]

Just now, SaveOurSonics said:

 

 

Sounds like I may have missed the point. I'd agree that Denver's targets are not a significant drop off from Seattle's. 

Frank was saying that Denver's players around wilson are all below average players which isn't true.

[BullsandBroncos]

1 minute ago, Forge said:

Everything about this is kind of amazing  lol 

I can't stand Mina Kimes but this is perfect and I like(d) Murray

[SaveOurSonics]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

IMHO you're crazy if you want the bolded over Russ.

Entirely possible that I'm just THAT low on Russ. I think you may be underestimating how much his declining mobility is hampering his game. 

I didn't think Burrow or Stafford would get much push back. 

Lamar and Kyler are admittedly right there with him but I'd personally give them the edge due to their elite mobility. Wouldn't argue with anyone who would take Russ over them, however.