Cooper Kupp V DeVante Adams

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, Flounch said:

You can talk about statistic all the time but the real question is what can Adams do, that Kupp couldn't and vice versa. 

And i think Kupp is a better all around tool WR than Adams.....he's better at running route, he can also block and that's very important. 

Adams is great but i don't think he's helping much in the running game and he played with Rodgers all the time so that helps for statistic. 

If Kupp was playing every year with Stafford, he would be already at the HOF. 

You must not watch Davante Adams much.

[Flounch]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

You must not watch Davante Adams much.

So...what are you saying ? His blocking skills he as agood as Kupp ?

[HERBO]

Adams I would also take Justin Jefferson over Kupp. JJ will be top WR as early as next season 

[jrry32]

4 hours ago, Soggust said:

I actually agree on Kupp and Samuel.

----

Jefferson seems like you are starting to reach.

		Rush	Rush	Rush	Rece	Rece	Rece
Rk	Player	Year	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD
1	Davante Adams	2021	0.0	0.0	0.0	7.7	97.1	0.7
2	Justin Jefferson	2021	0.4	0.8	0.0	6.4	95.1	0.6

----

Chase seems like you are an absolute Adams hater lol

Rushing			Receiving
Rk	Player	From	To	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD
1	Davante Adams	2021	2021	0.0	0.0	0.0	7.7	97.1	0.7
2	Ja'Marr Chase	2021	2021	0.4	1.2	0.0	4.8	85.6	0.8

I assume the only argument here is playoff success, but the problem with that is that while Chase certainly had a better year in the playoffs, it was only marginally better per game than Adams' 9/90 this year and it also completely destroys the Jefferson argument because Jefferson put up 0 for 0 sitting at home. 

I think you could creatively argue for #4, but #5 is absolute Stephen A Smith level blasphemy lol

You're looking purely at one form of stats. It's easy to understand why I said what I said if you look at the entire picture in context:

Davante Adams

169 targets

123 receptions

72.8%

1553 yards

12.6 YPC

9.2 YPT

11 TDs

Justin Jefferson

167 targets

108 receptions

64.7%

1616 yards

15.0 YPC

9.7 YPT

10 TDs

Ja'Marr Chase

128 targets

81 receptions

63.3%

1455 receiving yards

18.0 YPC

11.4 YPT

13 TDs

Chase's efficiency was absolutely insane. And Jefferson's numbers are basically equal to Adams's, but Jefferson caught passes from Kirk Cousins, not Aaron Rodgers.

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

Over the last 3 seasons, they've averaged:

Kupp: 110 receptions, 1361 receiving yards, 10 TD receptions
Adams: 107 receptions, 1308 receiving yards, 11 TD receptions

Adams has been more consistent, Kupp is more productive right now.  If you were to prefer Kupp to Adams moving forward, I wouldn't fight you at all.  But I also want to see Kupp continue to produce at the rate he did this past season.  His production this year was similar to the previous two years combined.

Adams played with Aaron Rodgers all three of those years. Kupp played with Goff two of those years. And Goff regressed massively in 2020, which unsurprisingly hurt both Kupp's and Woods's production. But sure, it's not unreasonable to want to see Kupp do it again. I think we both know he won't produce at the same rate as last year (back-to-back 1900+ yard seasons would be unheard of). But I expect another strong year. Yet, it's also not unreasonable to say after the 2021 season that Kupp is at the top of the NFL until somebody knocks him off the perch. We've been in a transitional period at the WR position. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the young guys claims the mantle for the next few years. But I think Kupp still has it right now.

[Soggust]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

You're looking purely at one form of stats. It's easy to understand why I said what I said if you look at the entire picture in context:

Davante Adams

169 targets

123 receptions

72.8%

1553 yards

12.6 YPC

9.2 YPT

11 TDs

Justin Jefferson

167 targets

108 receptions

64.7%

1616 yards

15.0 YPC

9.7 YPT

10 TDs

Ja'Marr Chase

128 targets

81 receptions

63.3%

1455 receiving yards

18.0 YPC

11.4 YPT

13 TDs

Chase's efficiency was absolutely insane. And Jefferson's numbers are basically equal to Adams's, but Jefferson caught passes from Kirk Cousins, not Aaron Rodgers.

Right but measuring efficiency per target is specifically biased against Adams because Rodgers is known to force him the ball and you are comparing him to two guys that are pieces of an offense that has many other weapons that the defense has to account for. They're supposed to be more efficient. But in reality- they actually aren't particularly more efficient, even per target. They are just deeper threats as noted by the ADOT and Catch % disparities. This makes sense as their #2s were constructed in 2021 (MVS speed vs Thielen/Higgins possession).

I do suppose you could argue it's a good thing the other guys don't require such a target share, but conversely one could argue that a better player would get more targets.

Jefferson's stats are the same, but over an extra game. We could debate support and postseason success but really I think it's close enough that I would have just disagreed and moved on had it not been for Chase as well. 

But I guess upon further review it seems like Chase is eerily akin to 2018 Tyreek Hill and Adams is similar to 2018 D Hopkins, so I suppose I'll accept it's less egregious than I first considered as long as we agree 2018 Hill was the best receiver in football (which I argued for so I'm fine being hypocritical now lol). 

[jrry32]

10 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Right but measuring efficiency per target is specifically biased against Adams because Rodgers is known to force him the ball and you are comparing him to two guys that are pieces of an offense that has many other weapons that the defense has to account for. They're supposed to be more efficient. But in reality- they actually aren't particularly more efficient, even per target. They are just deeper threats as noted by the ADOT and Catch % disparities. This makes sense as their #2s were constructed in 2021 (MVS speed vs Thielen/Higgins possession).

I do suppose you could argue it's a good thing the other guys don't require such a target share, but conversely one could argue that a better player would get more targets. 

It's not biased against Adams. Adams is playing with arguably the best QB in the NFL. This is like saying that looking at YPA for QBs is biased against the QBs who attempt more passes. When we look at QB numbers, we look at both bulk stats and efficiency. But people tend to weigh efficiency more heavily. It's not like Chase and Jefferson played with a better QB. So supporting casts are probably a push at best. Jefferson and Adams put up very similar numbers. I give Jefferson the slight edge. As for Chase, his efficiency numbers are so out of this world that I give the edge over Adams.

Quote

But I guess upon further review it seems like Chase is eerily akin to 2018 Tyreek Hill and Adams is similar to 2018 D Hopkins, so I suppose I'll accept it's less egregious than I first considered as long as we agree 2018 Hill was the best receiver in football (which I argued for so I'm fine being hypocritical now lol).

Julio was still tops at that time. But I think there's a good argument for Hill over Hopkins looking at 2018 alone.

[Soggust]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It's not biased against Adams. Adams is playing with arguably the best QB in the NFL. This is like saying that looking at YPA for QBs is biased against the QBs who attempt more passes. When we look at QB numbers, we look at both bulk stats and efficiency. But people tend to weigh efficiency more heavily. It's not like Chase and Jefferson played with a better QB. So supporting casts are probably a push at best. Jefferson and Adams put up very similar numbers. I give Jefferson the slight edge. As for Chase, his efficiency numbers are so out of this world that I give the edge over Adams.

Right, but you're referring to efficiency as purely per target, which tends to favor big play guys. I'm arguing Adams is more efficient than both (per game), while being drawing much more attention. 

I mean, is Tyler Lockett in this discussion because he had 11 YPT? Obviously not, because at the end of the day 1550 and 11 is simply better than 1200 and 8 or whatever. Chase is closer, but again, his per game stats are clearly lagging behind, imo.

 

[jrry32]

14 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Right, but you're referring to efficiency as purely per target, which tends to favor big play guys. I'm arguing Adams is more efficient than both (per game), while being drawing much more attention. 

I mean, is Tyler Lockett in this discussion because he had 11 YPT? Obviously not, because at the end of the day 1550 and 11 is simply better than 1200 and 8 or whatever. Chase is closer, but again, his per game stats are clearly lagging behind, imo.

 

Tyler Lockett isn't comparable in terms of bulk stats, so no. Jefferson's receiving yardage and TDs were very similar to Adams's. And while Adams had about 100 more receiving yards, Chase had two more receiving TDs. So again, we're talking comparable numbers.

[Soggust]

5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Tyler Lockett isn't comparable in terms of bulk stats, so no. Jefferson's receiving yardage and TDs were very similar to Adams's. And while Adams had about 100 more receiving yards, Chase had two more receiving TDs. So again, we're talking comparable numbers.

Okay so if 2 TDs = 100 Yards, then Hills 5 TD advantage (4 rec 1 rush) should account for the 200 yard edge for Jones in 2018, and given Tyreek's edge in YPT (and being the most explosive player perhaps ever), means you should definitely agree with me on Hill 😋. 

But I'll agree to disagree on Chase + Jefferson and admit it's closer than my initial reaction. I've derailed this thread enough lol. 

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

Okay so if 2 TDs = 100 Yards, then Hills 5 TD advantage (4 rec 1 rush) should account for the 200 yard edge for Jones in 2018, and given Tyreek's edge in YPT (and being the most explosive player perhaps ever), means you should definitely agree with me on Hill 😋. 

But I'll agree to disagree on Chase + Jefferson and admit it's closer than my initial reaction. I've derailed this thread enough lol. 

The problem for Hill was Julio's run of dominance (Antonio Brown's too). We are in a time of transition. There isn't a WR at the top of the NFL right now who has had a run like that. 

[MrOaktown_56]

I'm just happy to be able to argue our players in these conversations now 😎

[FrantikRam]

It's really pretty simple to me:

If you think that Rodgers is a better QB than Stafford, going to be really tough to argue Adams is better than Kupp.

[Soko]

14 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

It's really pretty simple to me:

If you think that Rodgers is a better QB than Stafford, going to be really tough to argue Adams is better than Kupp.

It’s pretty simple to me:

If you think Stafford is a better QB than Cousins, going to be really tough to argue Kupp is better than Jefferson.

[Packerraymond]

On 4/3/2022 at 4:20 AM, jrry32 said:

One final point, there's a very reasonable argument that Davante Adams was only the fifth-best WR in 2021. Who was better? Cooper Kupp, Justin Jefferson, Deebo Samuel, and Ja'Marr Chase.

Yeah if you box score scout. Tae is the best receiver in the game. Kupp isn't getting covered like this outside of the redzone:

[Phinsesq]

I went Kupp, if Adams was still with Rodgers I would go Adams.