Kiltman Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 34 minutes ago, Mox said: You don't see the doom and gloom coming off the biggest disappointment and then biggest bomb in MCU history, with two of your next three movies either being completely redone or on their fifth script, with like six other projects that are DOA coming up? Having actually seen The Marvels and Loki last week, and hearing about some of these plans and casting…yeah I’m feeling fine. They've reworked stuff since the start of the MCU. So it’s not as much of red flag as it is with other studios. Though we saw the limit of that when they had to totally reshuffle a lot of 2021 and 2022. If they are actually giving these things time to be done and breath, there was nothing wrong with them conceptually from what we know of. They are acknowledging the weaknesses of the last 4 years in a way that makes it seem like they learned the right lessons. We’ll see if that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 2 hours ago, Mox said: The simplest solution would be to scrap 70% of the projects they have in development, ones no one care about, and then use Secret Wars as their "Crisis on Infinite Earths" to reset the world fresh. But they won't do that. Is it the "simple solution" when that is currently set for 4 years from now? Sure if they shove it forward to take the place of Kang Dynasty it would help, but thats still like 2.5 years out, and you would likely be pushing back any project that isnt using already established characters. Would feel really odd to give F4 or Blade a whole stand alone movie just to toss them into a whole new earth/timeline with the same newly established main characters (I guess you could try to really thread the needle and introduce a whole new universe in those type of new franchises, and then bring them over in Secret Wars) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kiltman said: They are acknowledging the weaknesses of the last 4 years in a way that makes it seem like they learned the right lessons. We’ll see if that happens. Other than just some quotes, what makes you believe this? Feels like more drinking the kool-aide, bordering on fanboy just because its the MCU Outside of a few decent shows, a Spiderman movie that I loved but is mostly nostalgia bait, and the last chapter in a trilogy (GotG) which the Director is now leading your competition, what in the last 5 years has given you any reason to believe in what they are doing? They are barely hitting over the Mendoza line these days 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Kiltman said: Having actually seen The Marvels and Loki last week, and hearing about some of these plans and casting…yeah I’m feeling fine. They've reworked stuff since the start of the MCU. So it’s not as much of red flag as it is with other studios. Though we saw the limit of that when they had to totally reshuffle a lot of 2021 and 2022. If they are actually giving these things time to be done and breath, there was nothing wrong with them conceptually from what we know of. They are acknowledging the weaknesses of the last 4 years in a way that makes it seem like they learned the right lessons. We’ll see if that happens. It appears the difference between us is that you still give them the benefit of the doubt, where I don't believe they've shown they are deserving of it any longer. They have been trending down and had too many misses lately for me to still have faith in them. As far as the bold, well, we do know. Daredevil and Cap4 were so bad they literally had to start over. Blade is on its fifth script, and the rumors we have heard from some of the prior ones are...not promising. The whole 'fix it in post' mentality is catching up to them. They were reportedly blindsided by the Antman 3 backlash, and Feige allegedly had his hands all over Secret Invasion. They have too much on their plate to succeed with that same mindset, and they don't have the checks and balances they used to that kept Feige from deciding to make anything and everything he felt like. Acknowledging a weakness is not the same as changing it. 11 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Is it the "simple solution" when that is currently set for 4 years from now? Sure if they shove it forward to take the place of Kang Dynasty it would help, but thats still like 2.5 years out, and you would likely be pushing back any project that isnt using already established characters. Would feel really odd to give F4 or Blade a whole stand alone movie just to toss them into a whole new earth/timeline with the same newly established main characters (I guess you could try to really thread the needle and introduce a whole new universe in those type of new franchises, and then bring them over in Secret Wars) Sorry, let me rephrase for clarification. I think they biggest issue with the MCU right now is that we have a ton of projects coming up that no one is excited for, have a huge chance of flopping and destroying their reputation further. Getting rid of those projects would be my #1 priority. If they have five more flops in the next 2-3 years, it'll be too late, and no one will be left to care by the time the next Avengers comes around (which based on the current projects they have in production and the things they have pushed back, is not happening until 2028 at a minimum). Then I would focus on things that people do want, like X-Men, F4, Spider-man 4 and Blade, and make sure they are great. By reducing the projects, we get more time to put into these ones, and we don't have to wait as long to get to the Avengers. When we do eventually get to Secret Wars, that is simply the final step, where the world is cleansed of what isn't needed, and they stick with what is. Hopefully that makes more sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: Other than just some quotes, what makes you believe this? Feels like more drinking the kool-aide, bordering on fanboy just because its the MCU Outside of a few decent shows, a Spiderman movie that I loved but is mostly nostalgia bait, and the last chapter in a trilogy (GotG) which the Director is now leading your competition, what in the last 5 years has given you any reason to believe in what they are doing? They are barely hitting over the Mendoza line these days I fully admit I don't go into Marvel or any films wanting to nitpick or dislike them...why would I, giant waste of time. Take that as you will, it's easy to boil it down to fanboyism just like it's easy to boil down the other side as having the opposite agenda. Take them all as they are, I think maybe I was more prepared for the buckshot approach they were doing post Endgame than some. Which seems to be a large krux of the disappointment "what are they building towards" "where are the X-men?!?" They had to scale back and widen the scope from everything is building to these two movies. Since 2020, we've gotten Black Widow Shang-Chi WandaVision The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Loki s1 What If...? Eternals Spider-Man: No Way Home Hawkeye Moon Knight Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Ms. Marvel Thor: Love and Thunder She-Hulk: Attorney at Law Werewolf by Night Black Panther: Wakanda Forever Quantumania Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 Secret Invasion Loki s2 The Marvels Crazy amount of content, for either side to claim the majority of it awful or great doesn't seem genuine. Not just that it wasn't what you're looking for but that it was objectively bad. Same way that you have to acknowledge where things went awry. Shang-Chi, Wandavision, Loki (both seasons), Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, Werewolf by Night, Wakanda Forever, GotG vol 3. all worked and many made me excited for where they are going. The Marvels , Moon Knight, Hawkeye, FatWS, Eternals and What If were fine or just in the middle but setup either characters, parts of the universe that I'm looking forward to seeing more of. Quantumania, DS:Mom, She-Hulk disappointed me but there were still good in there. I liked SH for what it was, but it needed another 6 months in the oven. Thor Love and Thunder and Secret Invasion were the only full failure in my eyes, and Taika isn't coming back to do that again. Multiverse of Madness had enough to save it from being here, but man did it disappoint me.. Obviously expectations are tied to what they are, not going into Ms. Marvel with the same expectations as Doctor Strange or Thor. So I see what they done differently than you two clearly. And to me I try to keep what the pandemic did to over half of them. FatWS losing a storyline, Wandavision losing it's ending episode, What if losing an episode, Doctor Strange getting a huge rework timeline wise along with Spidey, and overall the onset overview / post-production capacity. It's not an excuse but it's impossible to not bring up in discussions with some of that stuff. But anyway, reasons why the sky maybe isn't falling Disney is no longer holding their foot down to make quite that amount of content. This helps the quality plus the planning. They are letting their shows be their own thing, along with some of the films under the Spotlight Banner. Actual tv showrunners and the chance at multiple seasons. They are also being more flexible with their audience targets, which is good. Whether it be a show aimed at families with kids (Ms. Marvel), women 18-45 ( She-Hulk) or those of us who want something more mature/rated r (Werewolf, Blade, Daredevil, and Deadpool). Shoot at the corners and not always the middle. They ditched bad writing staffs/directions for a handful of things to put the proper attention into them. Daredevil, Blade being the two most notable. Armor Wars becoming a film and Cap4 going in for reshoots are some others. Rumors before the change had Cap hitting that May date next year...a film with mulitple Hulks and a Cap that flies needs the time they got for VFX alone. The Visual FX studios are unionizing / being more catered to. Some of the worst things in the MCU happen because they rush that part. Less Content on a longer timeline should equal improvements there. I can boil it down to if they are giving us a rated R Blade and a proper Daredevil and giving each time to cook..then yeah I think they learned their lessons a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Mox said: It appears the difference between us is that you still give them the benefit of the doubt, where I don't believe they've shown they are deserving of it any longer. They have been trending down and had too many misses lately for me to still have faith in them. As far as the bold, well, we do know. Daredevil and Cap4 were so bad they literally had to start over. Blade is on its fifth script, and the rumors we have heard from some of the prior ones are...not promising. The whole 'fix it in post' mentality is catching up to them. They were reportedly blindsided by the Antman 3 backlash, and Feige allegedly had his hands all over Secret Invasion. They have too much on their plate to succeed with that same mindset, and they don't have the checks and balances they used to that kept Feige from deciding to make anything and everything he felt like. Acknowledging a weakness is not the same as changing it. And thats fair, considering what the change is it seems like a great thing. I think the Secret Invasion one is perhaps the most troubling. Had it all in your hand crashed it into the river. Like i was laughing by the end, one of the worst slight of hands as that series went to. Antman was fine, just coming off of the previous year it couldn't hold up to scrutiny. You swap that into where Antman and the Wasp was in and i don't think you get the same overall reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrILL! Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 Huge fan of Pedro but this rumored casting doesn’t fit. This is also still relevant… On 8/7/2023 at 9:58 PM, thrILL! said: The Fantastic 4 are the Cleveland Browns of Marvel Comics- incredible in the 1960's and pretty good in the 80's but haven't done anything since lol. Tbh just give us the X-Men, Kevin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Kiltman said: Having actually seen The Marvels and Loki last week, and hearing about some of these plans and casting…yeah I’m feeling fine. Even if you enjoyed it, it's on the way to being the biggest box office bomb of all-time. That's a huge red flag. People aren't responding anymore. The MCU is teasing things with absolutely 0 follow-up. Tiamut? Eros? The Ten Rings? Venom? Clea? Hercules? White Vision? Nothing since they were teased. No direction. Does anyone actually expect any follow-up for this stuff, besides a small role in a huge ensemble movie? They can't ask people to keep paying attention and then never give those people any payoff. That's how you lose the GA, and that's exactly what's happened this year. 1 all-time bomb, 1 very large bomb, and 1 success. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 26 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: Even if you enjoyed it, it's on the way to being the biggest box office bomb of all-time. That's a huge red flag. People aren't responding anymore. The MCU is teasing things with absolutely 0 follow-up. Tiamut? Eros? The Ten Rings? Venom? Clea? Hercules? White Vision? Nothing since they were teased. No direction. Does anyone actually expect any follow-up for this stuff, besides a small role in a huge ensemble movie? They can't ask people to keep paying attention and then never give those people any payoff. That's how you lose the GA, and that's exactly what's happened this year. 1 all-time bomb, 1 very large bomb, and 1 success. Hitting well even in the face of that is still a net positive, right? Like they are still capable at getting a movie done start to finish. Which after Thor and MoM was the question coming into 2023. Your second point is largely chalked up to delays (covid and strikes). Some of those followups have already been announced or reported. Alot of them pointing to phase 5 stories the other Phase 6 projects that were rumored to be happening. Like Tiamut with Cap4/Thunderbolts, White Vision and Visionquest. I also don't think every post credit scene is all an audience should be taking away from a movie. Yeah in the more middling or bad outings I get that that hype can overshadow... but the more egregious things are like "Why are you waiting so long to bring back Shang-Chi" not as much the Ten Rings tease. No way I'm going to sit here and say they've done all great things in the last 3.5 years...I sat through Secret Invasion. But if the goal was a plus-size Infinity Saga approach where they buckshotted a lot of characters that no one really cared about (like Ironman, Thor, The GotG, etc) and see what sticks..we are then arguably in that reflective turning point like they entered after phase 2 started. To try and simplify it. Maybe it's just me but i would've hated a nothing but the hits, "the xmen have been here amongst us all along...so were the Fantastic 4", next big bad fight from 2020 to 2024 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DUKE Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 Without getting spoilery, does Carol Danvers get any actual character development in The Marvels? Doesn't seem likely with the short run time, but i'm curious since they have pretty much had her be a MacGuffin through both Captain Marvel and Endgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 14 hours ago, Kiltman said: And thats fair, considering what the change is it seems like a great thing. I think the Secret Invasion one is perhaps the most troubling. Had it all in your hand crashed it into the river. Like i was laughing by the end, one of the worst slight of hands as that series went to. Antman was fine, just coming off of the previous year it couldn't hold up to scrutiny. You swap that into where Antman and the Wasp was in and i don't think you get the same overall reaction. Sure, but there is a reason for that isn't there? At one point they had the good will of the fans. They don't anymore, and that's because of what they've been doing. Then look at what we still have to come before Avengers: Echo Ironheart Agatha: Darkhold Diaries Daredevil: Born Again Deadpool 3 Captain America: Brave New World Thunderbolts Blade Fantastic 4 Armor Wars Shang-Chi 2 Spider-Man 4 Wonder Man Vision Quest Probably X-Men Potentially Okoye Potentially Nova Potentially Elsa Bloodstone There is no way all that should be coming out. You can easily cut that list in half and miss out on nothing important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Mox said: Echo I believe this is already finished. But probably should have been scrapped. 2 minutes ago, Mox said: Ironheart Agatha: Darkhold Diaries If its not too late they should scrap these. 2 minutes ago, Mox said: Daredevil: Born Again He's an important character and the Netflix series was good so I hope they stick with this. 3 minutes ago, Mox said: Deadpool 3 Captain America: Brave New World Both of these are key movies. 3 minutes ago, Mox said: Thunderbolts Scrap this. 3 minutes ago, Mox said: Blade Fantastic 4 These are also likely key movies, unless they want to move Blade to a series. 4 minutes ago, Mox said: Armor Wars Scrap this. 4 minutes ago, Mox said: Shang-Chi 2 Honestly I thought the first one was terrible. I'm not sure this character has enough interest to carry a movie franchise, I would make him more of a featured player like Black Widow or Hawkeye were in the older movies. 5 minutes ago, Mox said: Spider-Man 4 This is a key movie. 6 minutes ago, Mox said: Wonder Man Vision Quest Scrap these. 6 minutes ago, Mox said: Probably X-Men They need to figure out how to handle this best. 6 minutes ago, Mox said: Potentially Okoye Potentially Nova Potentially Elsa Bloodstone I wouldn't care about any of these. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 1 hour ago, THE DUKE said: Without getting spoilery, does Carol Danvers get any actual character development in The Marvels? Doesn't seem likely with the short run time, but i'm curious since they have pretty much had her be a MacGuffin through both Captain Marvel and Endgame. Kinda, makes her more of a person. Dealing with consequences of various choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltman Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 23 minutes ago, Mox said: Sure, but there is a reason for that isn't there? At one point they had the good will of the fans. They don't anymore, and that's because of what they've been doing. Then look at what we still have to come before Avengers: Echo Ironheart Agatha: Darkhold Diaries Daredevil: Born Again Deadpool 3 Captain America: Brave New World Thunderbolts Blade Fantastic 4 Armor Wars Shang-Chi 2 Spider-Man 4 Wonder Man Vision Quest Probably X-Men Potentially Okoye Potentially Nova Potentially Elsa Bloodstone There is no way all that should be coming out. You can easily cut that list in half and miss out on nothing important. I was thinking about this discussion and I think the larger point is I tend to blame Disney more than I blame Marvel. They pivoted the whole company to cater to D+ and leaned on it, then cut its chords or kept it boxed in. Feige isn’t blameless, which is why I said what I said about Invasion. Would we have gotten a better SI had they been able to scale it properly and stayed in that mature lane the whole time? Who knows, but it does seem like going forward they are being allowed to do that. Also The Marvels box office would’ve been better had Disney not been indignant and greedy about the strikes. But to that list I agree it’s a lot of content, and not all of it is “needed”. Which is why I think them willing to do lower budgets and having the spotlight thing matters. It’s more opt in on the D+ side, which they’ve already done. Like you didn’t need to watch Ms. Marvel to get her in The Marvels. But it was there before or after if you liked her and wanted to watch her origin. Same way Agatha will be there for people that want more Witch and Kathryn Hahn content after Wandavision. As a fan of the supernatural side of what they are doing, yeah I’m interested in more Elsa and that side of the universe. But it’s not going to be for everyone. It was on them to communicate that sooner and clearer. And it’ll be on them now to make sure the projects are good on their own now that Disney isn’t demanding it all come out at least a year earlier than it should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 17 minutes ago, Kiltman said: I was thinking about this discussion and I think the larger point is I tend to blame Disney more than I blame Marvel. They pivoted the whole company to cater to D+ and leaned on it, then cut its chords or kept it boxed in. Feige isn’t blameless, which is why I said what I said about Invasion. Would we have gotten a better SI had they been able to scale it properly and stayed in that mature lane the whole time? Who knows, but it does seem like going forward they are being allowed to do that. Also The Marvels box office would’ve been better had Disney not been indignant and greedy about the strikes. But to that list I agree it’s a lot of content, and not all of it is “needed”. Which is why I think them willing to do lower budgets and having the spotlight thing matters. It’s more opt in on the D+ side, which they’ve already done. Like you didn’t need to watch Ms. Marvel to get her in The Marvels. But it was there before or after if you liked her and wanted to watch her origin. Same way Agatha will be there for people that want more Witch and Kathryn Hahn content after Wandavision. As a fan of the supernatural side of what they are doing, yeah I’m interested in more Elsa and that side of the universe. But it’s not going to be for everyone. It was on them to communicate that sooner and clearer. And it’ll be on them now to make sure the projects are good on their own now that Disney isn’t demanding it all come out at least a year earlier than it should. I'll give you that Disney and Disney+ in particular are a large factor in the Marvel Brand suffering. But I think Feige is getting let off too easy by most. He seems remarkably out of touch with his audience at this point. Removing his checks and balances has shown us that Feige with absolute power has some glaring weaknesses. Not on board with the strikes having any major impact on the box office. It'd be an all-time level bomb regardless. While I do think going to smaller budgets and changing things to spotlights isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'm not sure I buy it. They are still stretching the Marvel team incredibly thin to be working on so many projects. You also still have Feige and his "fix it in post" mentality, which naturally leads to higher budgets. So, to me, it's all talk. IMO, if the MCU wants any chance of succeeding, they need to cut the fluff, and stick only to big projects again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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