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2023 CFB Talk/Draft Prospects


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5 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

What's weird for me this year is that there is no one I'm going to be really really hoping slides down to us or hope we trade up for (which we will never do). 

It's a depressing class up top imo. There's almost zero chance any viable stud option falls to us. There is no path for guys like Christian Gonzalez or Jaxon Smith-Njigba.

Also with only two major needs and a severe lack of draft capital we're kind of handicapped in an atypical way. 

Fans should expect the exact opposite of last year's draft, where we nabbed nothing but BPA mega value options. Instead we'll be overdrafting/reaching at need spots cause we really don't have any other choice.

I'm also starting to think that if we don't acquire a starting WR via trade we'll be forced to go WR in Round 1. The disparity in talent between our 1st pick(22nd) and 2nd pick(86th) is too great at WR, and our chance of finding a Day 1 contributor in the 3rd Round remains awful. 

It's not a "Wow Rashad Bateman fell to us" kind of WR class either, it's a JSN is gone so pick Jordan Addison(if he's even there) as a safe low ceiling productive WR2 or select your Breshad Perriman/Kevin White/DeVante Parker/Kevin White/Nelson Agholor 2015 WR class level lottery ticket.

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13 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

It's hard to see another pick there with Oweh and Ojabo back to back years. Ojabo being a known redshirt is like we traded a 2nd for a future pick, which with time/value escalation had to be viewed like a 2023 1st.

There are a lot of great matches in our range like Joey Porter Jr or Banks at corner. I still like Zay Flowers as a first rounder (though, ideally a trade back a bit and grab). What's weird for me this year is that there is no one I'm going to be really really hoping slides down to us or hope we trade up for (which we will never do). 

I see what you’re saying and believe me I’ve told myself the same, but I honestly don’t understand what I’m missing. Nolan Smith looks like he should be a top 10-15 lock and yet I’m seeing him fall into the 2nd round in many mocks.

We don’t “need” an edge, but considering Oweh’s regression last season, we could certainly “use” an edge.. beyond that, like you said, this draft doesn’t have that DUDE that I’m so enamored with at this point, but the closest I’m seeing to that guy is Nolan Smith.

I’m seeing some pass rush moves, elite athleticism, functional strength, high level IQ, incredible versatility. Dude is Tyus Bowser on steroids IMO.

If we trade PQ and have some extra ammo, I’d rather go veteran at corner with Marcus Peters and Anthony Averett with our young corners already in house and then go WR with the Patrick Queen ammo (think he’s going to be a draft day trade, hence why that situation is so quiet.) Bowser and Smith have the versatility to ILB and we mostly run nickel anyway, so we can get a 2nd ILB on day 3 and be good.

Second round (what I expect to get for PQ- similar to Hurst), I’m all aboard the Marvin Mims train personally. I think the biggest gain we would make to the WR room would come via a trade for Mike Evans post draft anyway.

WR1- Evans
WR2- Bateman, Mims Jr
WR3- Duvernay, Aghalor

(Make it happen EDC!)

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Unpopular opinion- I think the Ravens could be higher on Jalin Hyatt than people think, and I'd be fine with us drafting him:

- Tee Martin personally recruited Jalin Hyatt to Tennessee 

- 21 Y/O with dominant SEC production, 5 TDs vs Alabama(Ozzie 👀s)

- The Ravens have traditionally pursued vertical burners in the draft 

- 5.2% Drop Rate

- Career average is a TD every 5.6 catches, and 2022 average was TD every 4.46 catches

- Ravens offense is saturated with short and intermediate targets, but lacks players who can threaten deep 3rd

- Todd Monken specifically mentioned 'space' as a larger concept when referencing improving our passing attack and also talked about utilizing the full length of the field- Hyatt meets both criteria

- Hyatt's stock is in range of our current pick and a potential trade down

 

Jalin Hyatt has become underrated at this point. All the criticisms of him(? vs press, skinny frame, etc) can be applied to other players in the class and it seems like his positives are being ignored. 

Making dominant production look effortless in the SEC isn't some easy thing to do, it's a monumental accomplishment. Take a look at the names on this Top 25 all time SEC receiving yards single season list-

Rk Player Yds Year School
1 DeVonta Smith* 1856 2020 Alabama
2 Ja'Marr Chase* 1780 2019 LSU
3 Josh Reed 1740 2001 LSU
4 Amari Cooper* 1727 2014 Alabama
5 Jameson Williams* 1572 2021 Alabama
6 Justin Jefferson* 1540 2019 LSU
7 Alshon Jeffery* 1517 2010 South Carolina
8 Jordan Matthews* 1477 2013 Vanderbilt
9 Mike Evans* 1394 2013 Texas A&M
10 Travis McGriff 1357 1998 Florida
11 Cobi Hamilton 1335 2012 Arkansas
12 Wan'Dale Robinson* 1334 2021 Kentucky
13 Carlos Alvarez 1329 1969 Florida
14 Jordan Matthews* 1323 2012 Vanderbilt
15 A.J. Brown 1320 2018 Ole Miss
16 Jerry Jeudy* 1315 2018 Alabama
17 Craig Yeast 1311 1998 Kentucky
18 Robert Meachem* 1298 2006 Tennessee
19 Reidel Anthony 1293 1996 Florida
20 Jalin Hyatt* 1267 2022 Tennessee
21 DeVonta Smith* 1256 2019 Alabama
22 A.J. Brown 1252 2017 Ole Miss
23 Wendell Davis 1244 1986 LSU
24 Boo Mitchell 1213 1988 Vanderbilt
25 Elijah Moore* 1193 2020 Ole Miss
25 Jarvis Landry* 1193 2013 LSU

 

It's more than nonsensical that some talking heads are acting like those numbers could easily be replicated by another player simply by virtue of being in the Vol's offense. That top 25 is filled with nothing but dominant receivers who paired tremendous athletic gifts with natural receiving talent- that's how you produce at a high level in the SEC.

Hyatt frequently made it look easy because he has the base ability to make producing easy. 

Jalin Hyatt as a true freshman-

^^^^ Jalin's ability didn't just spring up out of nowhere. He was a high recruit into the SEC and immediately established himself as an up and coming weapon in his true freshman season. He burned Bama for 5TDs as a full time starter last season and burned them for essentially 2 TDs(just barely stepped out on second one) during his true freshman season as a part time starter. 

Hyatt has gears that threaten a TD every time he's on the field, and he pairs that speed with natural tracking and catching ability. He's one of the few receivers in this class who actually catches outside of his frame consistently- something that isn't mentioned about him nearly enough.

I found this tweet from 3 years ago and think it's relevant-

Jefferson had many of the exact same complaints Hyatt is getting. Inflated numbers from the slot, WR2 ceiling, no experience vs press...... 

I'm not implying Hyatt is on or will be at Jefferson's level, but the misguided scrutiny of them is similar. Both made it look so easy in the SEC that people started to just assume there must be some sort of grand 'trick' to the production. Like putting dangerous receivers in the slot is some nefarious concept, rather than a modern tactic utilized by most successful offensive minds in football. 

If you took Justin Jefferson and put him in the Vol's 2022 offense with Hendon Hooker/Cedric Tillman and took Jalin Hyatt and put him in the 2019 LSU offense with Joe Burrow/Jamarr Chase- just how different would the production for each of them be? They shared the same role, played in the same conference, had similarly elite catch rates, and both dominated. I guess the point I'm making is you either have the ability to consistently catch passes and produce off of them or you don't. 

Hyatt's ultimate floor is as a consistently viable and valuable deep threat in the mold & range of Ted Ginn Jr./Will Fuller/Torrey Smith/Desean Jackson etc, but his ceiling is being spectacularly slept on. He's young, will fill out his frame, and already flashes natural ascension tools at the position(contact balance, tracking, catching outside frame, etc).

The mental side of his game is really impressive as well. He's fiery, competitive, confident, and multiple people have called his interviews 'standout' when compared to the other receivers- especially when it comes to to breaking down offensive concepts and the technical role of a receiver. 

You can tell from all of his interviews that he views himself as part of a team first, and winning with his brothers is what he wants most. Here he is talking about his 5 TDs vs Bama being meaningless if they didn't get the dub-

 

There's nothing about this kid that should scare Ravens fans. Day 1 you get a competitive and team orientated player who is a threat to score every time he touches the ball, a plus deep threat, easy small ball cushion vulture, and someone who immediately opens up easier looks for all of our other weapons because of the attention he requires from both CBs and Safeties. Jalin Hyatt makes our offense more dangerous and everyone else in it better. There's a comfortability factor with Tee Martin in house and it seems like a natural fit. 

I think JSN and Addison are off the board and we go with Jalin Hyatt in the 1st Round. 👍

 

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Guys like Nolan Smith, Darnell Wright, and Lukas Van Ness are all fun names and in a typical year I could see the Ravens viewing them as a BPA options, but with so few picks and such glaring needs I don't see us deviating from the CB/WR script.

()= how many players from said position are typically on the field 

EDGE(2): 3 young starting caliber talents in Bowser, Ojabo, Oweh + a likely Justin Houston resign

OT(2): 3 starting talents in Ronnie Stanley, Morgan Moses, Patrick Mekari + Year 2 Daniel Faalele as a backup

vs

CB(2-3): 1 starting talent in Marlon Humphrey

WR(2-4): 2 Starting talents returning from injury in Rashod Bateman and Devin Duvernay + Agholor as a WR4 type

------

We need to add at least 2 more starting talents to CB and WR, and there's an argument to be made that none of Smith/Wright/Van Ness could even earn reps at their positions come Week 1 with so many talented and established bodies in front of them. Having a 1st Round pick just sit on the bench and not contribute would be a disaster.

Unless we swing some serious trades, expect someone from the CB/WR pool to be picked on draft day.

 

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There's a weird overlap between Ravens fans(mostly on twitter) who sh*t on Devin Duvernay and also insist that us not taking Zay Flowers would be malpractice.

Zay Flowers

5'9 182 lbs  29" arms  9" hands   1.53 10YS   4.42 40  127" broad   35 1/2" Vert

10.3% Drop Rate

Devin Duvernay

5'10 200 lbs  30" arms  9" hands  1.51 10YS   4.39 40   123" broad  35 1/2" Vert

2.7% Drop Rate  

 

Duvernay did the undersized receiver who excels at the catch point, tracking the ball, and after the catch thing too... against better competition, with a better catch and YAC rate-

Duvernay even brought it to the NFL level, in a Greg Roman offense no less-

 

Duvernay is bigger than Zay Flowers, has better hands than Zay Flowers, has much better long speed(over 21 MPH GPS on field tracked multiple times) than Zay Flowers, and  he has All-Pro KR/PR return ability after the catch.

So if your contention is that Devin Duvernay sucks but Zay Flowers is a must grab prospect in the 1st Round then you're saying despite being smaller, slower, less prolific with the ball, and possessing much less reliable hands than Duvernay- Flowers' talent still somehow dwarfs Duve's to such a degree that he's a must grab prospect....  Good luck with that. Flowers probably has an edge in a pure route running sense because Duvernay is more linear inclined but that's about it. 

Flowers is a solid receiver prospect and Devin Duvernay is a solid NFL receiver, + gadget weapon, and All-Pro returner. Given their profiles, it's funny that some fans can only acknowledge the former and then expose themselves by denying the latter. 

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Johnston is my current WR5 right now:

1- Jaxon Smith-Njigba

2- Jordan Addison

3- Jalin Hyatt

4- Cedric Tillman

5- Quentin Johnston

Njigba and Addison are the most natural receivers in the class. Hyatt and Tillman are SEC proven options who win in different ways, Hyatt with pure speed/separation and Tillman with a true X skillset, but both have monster games vs top flight competition on their resume. Johnston has major issues with his hands and refuses to attack the ball the way a player his size should, but his physical profile, base deep threat ability, and rare after catch ability stand out against the rest of this WR class. 

I'm not surprised the Ravens are in on QJ. Seems like they're chasing size at the position, and he brings that + the deep threat element they love. Exceptionally volatile prospect though, who could fall anywhere on the Breshad Perriman-Martavis Bryant-Demaryius Thomas spectrum. 

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17 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Guys like Nolan Smith, Darnell Wright, and Lukas Van Ness are all fun names and in a typical year I could see the Ravens viewing them as a BPA options, but with so few picks and such glaring needs I don't see us deviating from the CB/WR script.

()= how many players from said position are typically on the field 

EDGE(2): 3 young starting caliber talents in Bowser, Ojabo, Oweh + a likely Justin Houston resign

OT(2): 3 starting talents in Ronnie Stanley, Morgan Moses, Patrick Mekari + Year 2 Daniel Faalele as a backup

vs

CB(2-3): 1 starting talent in Marlon Humphrey

WR(2-4): 2 Starting talents returning from injury in Rashod Bateman and Devin Duvernay + Agholor as a WR4 type

------

We need to add at least 2 more starting talents to CB and WR, and there's an argument to be made that none of Smith/Wright/Van Ness could even earn reps at their positions come Week 1 with so many talented and established bodies in front of them. Having a 1st Round pick just sit on the bench and not contribute would be a disaster.

Unless we swing some serious trades, expect someone from the CB/WR pool to be picked on draft day.

 

Personally I agree with him about Nolan Smith, the others not so much. I didn’t think Van Ness was special enough, he didn’t pop for me when watching and certainly not enough that I would be willing to go with him over a trade down and/or just taking the best WR available.

I haven’t watch Wright to say one way or the other, but I tend to agree with you that between Mekari and Faalele that’s going to be the depth needed to backup Moses. That said I do think if Wright looks like an elite LG option than I can be on board for his selection. Especially if we trade Patrick Queen and get a 2nd round pick for him.

Mekari can man the LG spot as next man up and we obviously have Ben Cleveland as well, but neither has shown elite potential as well as RG probably has one more year before Zeitler is retiring and so interior help will be needed. So I could see Wright, if he’s got LG versatility, being competition for the LG spot and Mekari hanging on as our depth at C and LT. But this is if Wright is like another Kelechi Osemele type player (but with better durability).

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17 hours ago, DreamKid said:

There's a weird overlap between Ravens fans(mostly on twitter) who sh*t on Devin Duvernay and also insist that us not taking Zay Flowers would be malpractice.

Zay Flowers

5'9 182 lbs  29" arms  9" hands   1.53 10YS   4.42 40  127" broad   35 1/2" Vert

10.3% Drop Rate

Devin Duvernay

5'10 200 lbs  30" arms  9" hands  1.51 10YS   4.39 40   123" broad  35 1/2" Vert

2.7% Drop Rate  

 

Duvernay did the undersized receiver who excels at the catch point, tracking the ball, and after the catch thing too... against better competition, with a better catch and YAC rate-

Duvernay even brought it to the NFL level, in a Greg Roman offense no less-

 

Duvernay is bigger than Zay Flowers, has better hands than Zay Flowers, has much better long speed(over 21 MPH GPS on field tracked multiple times) than Zay Flowers, and  he has All-Pro KR/PR return ability after the catch.

So if your contention is that Devin Duvernay sucks but Zay Flowers is a must grab prospect in the 1st Round then you're saying despite being smaller, slower, less prolific with the ball, and possessing much less reliable hands than Duvernay- Flowers' talent still somehow dwarfs Duve's to such a degree that he's a must grab prospect....  Good luck with that. Flowers probably has an edge in a pure route running sense because Duvernay is more linear inclined but that's about it. 

Flowers is a solid receiver prospect and Devin Duvernay is a solid NFL receiver, + gadget weapon, and All-Pro returner. Given their profiles, it's funny that some fans can only acknowledge the former and then expose themselves by denying the latter. 

Hard disagree. Speed and hands while a gross simplification of your argument is IMO also the truth of Duvernay’s strengths in this comparison… and that is a gross simplification of what makes a receiver good.

Quote

Duvernay did the undersized receiver who excels at the catch point, tracking the ball, and after the catch thing too... against better competition, with a better catch and YAC rate-

I definitely disagree with this sentiment. Duvernay doesn’t excel at the catch point, in fact id go so far as to say it’s a weakness. He does have strong hands and can make catches in traffic, however he is not someone that is going to meet the ball at the highest point. He’s got alligator arms and doesn’t do well in timing his jumps. In fact if the hall is off course, but within his zip code,  I’ve seen numerous examples where he does not attack the ball.

His ball tracking skills are below average as well, too many occasions where balls are thrown early and short, that can be blamed on the QB, but also on the WR, WRs that actually excel in this skill make the QB look right; varying their route speed and/or using mid route adjustments to buy more time for the ball to fall to the spot where they can be in position to make the play.

YAC I definitely agree with because Duvernay is a former RB… and he plays the WR position similar to a former RB. His cuts are rigid, his hips are tight, he provides non nuance in gearing down and adjusting his route speed.

He doesn’t utilize his strength to gain separation at the top of routes with well timed space creation (pushing off with his elbows). 

He tracks the ball based off its current trajectory and gets his hands up early to to make sure they’re ready for the catch, WRs that are truly elite and/or good at the position present their hands late so DBs can’t use their hands as a way of knowing when to get their head around and/or time their contest.


A good WR is a magician that use many different techniques to provide a sleight of hand to the route being run. Those clips you posted of Duvernay in college are similar to all his collegiate and pro highlights where 9/10 he’s got a defender in his hip pocket the entire time. Has he shown he can make the occasional explosive play and occasionally he can get up and make said play, the sad reality is that Duvernay is just an athlete with excellent hands playing WR. He’s not a sleight of hand artist.


Whereas I may not be the biggest Zay Flowers fan, mainly because I don’t trust his profile in some of the things you’ve pointed out, but he’s still got the sleight of hand ability that the greats have and that it’s difficult to teach. Most guys seem to naturally understand how to manipulate players and space and some do not. Flowers creates tons of route space because of that, not his athleticism.

Again, I trust the profile of guys like Marvin Mims and Jordan Addison more, but I still feel like Zay Flowers could be an Emmanuel Sanders type of WR, whereas Devin Duvernay is who he is at this point. His potential seems to be Willie Snead level with elite special teams ability.

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9 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Whereas I may not be the biggest Zay Flowers fan, mainly because I don’t trust his profile in some of the things you’ve pointed out, but he’s still got the sleight of hand ability that the greats have and that it’s difficult to teach. Most guys seem to naturally understand how to manipulate players and space and some do not. Flowers creates tons of route space because of that, not his athleticism.

My post wasn't about Zay Flowers being a bad player, it was about fans heralding Flowers as a franchise altering force but then also declaring Duvernay useless- when both players fall under the same archetype. 

As I said, Flowers is better pure route runner who creates easier horizontal separation and Duvernay is a much more linear receiving threat- but that difference in their profiles can't bride the gap from "Duvernay is trash" to "Flowers is a must grab prospect". 

Conceptually both players will have to win in the same ways due to their physical profiles and Duvernay has already proven himself a successful option at the NFL level.  

Also, catch point success isn't just about high pointing- which Duvernay has proven is in his toolbox(see TD vs NE at 1:00)-

 

Owning the catch point is also about body manipulation, positioning, and ultimately having hands strong enough to bring the ball down through contact. Duvernay does excel in those areas. 

Flowers is shorter than Duve and brings less length to the table, which means his catching radius is smaller as is the target he presents to our QB. With his size and lack of pure speed it's unlikely that he'll be able to stick on the boundary and he'll most likely be moved to the slot. So like Duvernay he'll mostly be an underneath target who looks to produce off of small ball YAC, crossers, and developing routes downfield.

Duvernay and Flowers targets/opportunities in the passing game will largely look the same with the tradeoffs being more long speed, contact balance, and a stronger catch rate for Duve and better route running/separation for Flowers. I'm a major believer in the superiority of said route running/separation, it's why I love WRs like Diggs, Ridley, Bateman, etc. So it makes sense to me that people have Flowers graded out as a superior prospective option. The lack of acknowledgment towards the redundancies between the two players and the ability that Duve does bring to the table is where I look at some fans as illogical.  

Fans expecting some injection of a wild new element into our offense with an addition of Zay Flowers are sadly mistaken. Of all the top WR prospects, his game is probably what we're most familiar with and it will largely look like a combination of the underneath to intermediate work showcased by Marquise Brown and Devin Duvernay- just a different stylistic approach. 

Which is why it's not surprising to me that the FO is looking heavily at guys who will present large downfield targets to our QB- As that's an element that has been missing from our offense.

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13 hours ago, DreamKid said:

My post wasn't about Zay Flowers being a bad player, it was about fans heralding Flowers as a franchise altering force but then also declaring Duvernay useless- when both players fall under the same archetype. 

As I said, Flowers is better pure route runner who creates easier horizontal separation and Duvernay is a much more linear receiving threat- but that difference in their profiles can't bride the gap from "Duvernay is trash" to "Flowers is a must grab prospect". 

Conceptually both players will have to win in the same ways due to their physical profiles and Duvernay has already proven himself a successful option at the NFL level.  

Also, catch point success isn't just about high pointing- which Duvernay has proven is in his toolbox(see TD vs NE at 1:00)-

 

Owning the catch point is also about body manipulation, positioning, and ultimately having hands strong enough to bring the ball down through contact. Duvernay does excel in those areas. 

Flowers is shorter than Duve and brings less length to the table, which means his catching radius is smaller as is the target he presents to our QB. With his size and lack of pure speed it's unlikely that he'll be able to stick on the boundary and he'll most likely be moved to the slot. So like Duvernay he'll mostly be an underneath target who looks to produce off of small ball YAC, crossers, and developing routes downfield.

Duvernay and Flowers targets/opportunities in the passing game will largely look the same with the tradeoffs being more long speed, contact balance, and a stronger catch rate for Duve and better route running/separation for Flowers. I'm a major believer in the superiority of said route running/separation, it's why I love WRs like Diggs, Ridley, Bateman, etc. So it makes sense to me that people have Flowers graded out as a superior prospective option. The lack of acknowledgment towards the redundancies between the two players and the ability that Duve does bring to the table is where I look at some fans as illogical.  

Fans expecting some injection of a wild new element into our offense with an addition of Zay Flowers are sadly mistaken. Of all the top WR prospects, his game is probably what we're most familiar with and it will largely look like a combination of the underneath to intermediate work showcased by Marquise Brown and Devin Duvernay- just a different stylistic approach. 

Which is why it's not surprising to me that the FO is looking heavily at guys who will present large downfield targets to our QB- As that's an element that has been missing from our offense.

I suppose I’m not into enough of the Twitter/social verses to know what people are saying.

I think Duvernay is largely a decent #3 WR and not much more. He doesn’t suck, but he’s not a #2 WR option like we were using him as. We’ll have to agree to disagree about Duvernay being a good option at the catch point. I don’t disagree with the things you’ve listed but while there are examples of the things you list, there are too many examples of him not attacking balls. I don’t think he’s got the fluidity and grace, nor the physicality at the top of the route to provide enough space to make him more successful in 50/50 situations. I think if he were great those situations would he more 60/40 or 70/30 when really I feel with him in those situations they’re more 30/70. But again, if you see those things, that’s fine, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

In terms of Flowers, I don’t agree that he’ll have to move to the slot due to size. I think his size can work on the edge as we’ve seen with AB, TY Hilton, etc.

Again, I’m not a believer of Flowers, I personally think Mims is the 2b WR in this class, but that’s me. I just think his fluidity lends itself to the outside. Duvernay has to work inside exclusively because he doesn’t have the ability to create space in his routes, he needs the additional space the inside allows, whereas Flowers can create space within a phone booth. Flowers has awesome hips and feet, similar to guys of Ravens past like Pitta and Andrews, which is what makes him successful.

Personally I think Flowers is either going to be a star or he’s going to be a JAG and I can’t truly decide which I think that will be… hence why I’m lower on him than some of the others. Hard to trust his profile.

 

But yeah I don’t agree with people if they think Duvernay is trash. I think he’s an average #3 and that’s honestly better than what I thought he’d be coming out of college.

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https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/04/report-anthony-richardson-slated-to-meet-with-ravens-titans-falcons/

Quote

There was also word of a meeting with the Panthers and a report on Tuesday shed light on more of his plans. Josina Anderson of CBS Sports reports that Richardson is also slated to meet with the Colts, Falcons, Titans, and Ravens.

The Ravens’ inclusion on the list is eye-catching given the Lamar Jackson situation. Jackson has not signed his franchise tag and could still be targeted by another team this offseason. If not, he could choose to sit out the 2023 season or play out the year under the tag before trying to move on in 2024.

As of now, the Ravens are set to pick 22nd so they’d likely have to move up to have a chance at drafting Richardson. The same could be true of the Titans, who are set to pick 11th and have been linked to a potential move up to the third pick.

anigif-sub-buzz-30695-1555342575-1_nbs1.

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