NFLPA investigating handling of Dolphins QB Tagovailoa’s concussion check

[jofos]

1 minute ago, squire12 said:

There is actually the concepts of a delayed onset of concussion symptoms.   Is asking about them a bad thing?

 

not but the post I was replying to said that the follow-ups are required but only the next day folllow-up is. There is also the fact that the Dolphins said there was no head injury, it was a back injury.

[Soko]

1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

FWIW, one point I'd probably want to highlight - the fact that McDaniel is freely saying stuff like it's "just" a concussion and giving the story about him & Tua watching McGruber together on the plane home - doesn't mean McDaniel's the problem.   He's clearly a very smart guy - his ability to run a team as a rookie HC is 100x better than Nathaniel Hackett's.  I'd love to have him as my HC.

But the total lack of awareness also means whoever the medical staff that travels with them and is there on gameday is REALLY not at all qualified to treat head injuries.   I mean, high-school kids get better advice if McDaniel wasn't told about the rest/no screens stuff.   

I applaud McDaniel for standing up and answering the Q's - but the unintended effect is he's getting skewered.  He probably doesn't deserve nearly as much criticism as he's getting.   He hopefully has learned bigtime, and reads up on this, so he doesn't let this happen again.  But given he's a rookie HC and wasn't any more than an OC before with Shanny as HC, I can totally believe he's just in the dark about this stuff.   That's where his medical staff are supposed to have the players & FO's back (including the independent neurologist).   

And yeah, medical staff, however, and the independent neurologist....there's not enough criticism in the world to be called undeserved.  And the FO who've been around these injuries, don't get nearly as much forgiveness.   They should know better.

McDaniel doesn’t deserve a pass. I’m not really roasting the guy for the language he used or his explanation(s), but he deserves ample heat.

Every viewer who isn’t employed by the NFL/Miami Dolphins/guys with $800k salaries on FF, saw that Tua hit his head on Sunday. People said it as he returned in Buffalo, and they said it before Thursday night - the dude should be sitting. Now would an incompetent or incorrect medical staff skew his opinion towards Tua playing, sure. But it was just blatantly obvious to everyone without a vested interest in Tua playing. A HC, even a rookie, should be x1000 more familiar with concussions and concussion symptoms than your average NFL Joe. 

McDaniel, short of some grand conspiracy, probably isn’t the main culprit here, but he absolutely could’ve protected his quarterback with just an ounce of common sense that the casual prime time viewer has. And he did it twice now.

[squire12]

2 minutes ago, jofos said:

not but the post I was replying to said that the follow-ups are required but only the next day folllow-up is. There is also the fact that the Dolphins said there was no head injury, it was a back injury.

So going above and beyond the protocol is a bad thing?

[Broncofan]

3 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

McDaniel doesn’t deserve a pass. I’m not really roasting the guy for the language he used or his explanation(s), but he deserves ample heat.

Every viewer who isn’t employed by the NFL/Miami Dolphins/guys with $800k salaries on FF, saw that Tua hit his head on Sunday. People said it as he returned in Buffalo, and they said it before Thursday night - the dude should be sitting. Now would an incompetent or incorrect medical staff skew his opinion towards Tua playing, sure. But it was just blatantly obvious to everyone without a vested interest in Tua playing. A HC, even a rookie, should be x1000 more familiar with concussions and concussion symptoms than your average NFL Joe. 

McDaniel, short of some grand conspiracy, probably isn’t the main culprit here, but he absolutely could’ve protected his quarterback with just an ounce of common sense that the casual prime time viewer has. And he did it twice now.

Let me be clear - McDaniel deserves heat.   But I get the exact impression he's being portrayed as the main culprit.   That's where I think it's misplaced.   And it's because he's kinda becoming the org fall guy by answering all the Q's.   I respect the accountability as the HC should stand up and be held accountable - I just don't think he's even close to the main culprit.  That was my point.

But yeah, he's not blameless, I think my OP said he doesn't deserve as much criticism as he's getting...but he still deserves criticism.   My bad if it came off that way.    

Edited September 30, 2022 by Broncofan

[Soko]

1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

Let me be clear - McDaniel deserves heat.   But I get the exact impression he's being portrayed as the main culprit.   That's where I think it's misplaced.   And it's because he's kinda becoming the org fall guy by answering all the Q's.   I respect the accountability as the HC should stand up and be held accountable - I just don't think he's even close to the main culprit.  That was my point.

But yeah, he's not blameless.   My bad if it came off that way.    

All good. We’re on the same page. 

I think the realistic scenario here is the medical staff takes this fall, they get fired, and McDaniel learns a lesson (hopefully). There should be more, but knowing the NFL, that’s about the best you can hope for.

[jofos]

8 minutes ago, squire12 said:

So going above and beyond the protocol is a bad thing?

do you think they went above and beyond?

[squire12]

2 minutes ago, jofos said:

do you think they went above and beyond?

I don't have enough information on the subjective and physical examinations that were conducted by those involved at any of the opportunities since the incident on Sunday.

I know concussion assessment is highly subjective and dependent on the patient being honest with the examiner.  Blatant abnormal findings that are easily observable.....

-- abnormal balance testing responses

-- abnormal coordination testing responses

-- abnormal ocularmotor testing responses

Those are just a few items.  Unfortunately, symptom provocation and/ or comparison to baseline function is often what is going to be apart of the puzzle and athlete answers are a big part of that.  

Regarding the Miami medical staff asking Tua about symptoms on a daily check, I am not sure what the team specific process is for checking in with all players when the players get to the facility each day.  

Many high major college and pro teams have athletes ( all athletes) do a physical psychological readiness assessment.... sleep, stress, mental health, nutrition, pain, stiffness, tightness, swelling , etc, etc.  This information is used by the training, medical nutrition, sports psychology staffs to adjust workouts, rest, recovery.

 

That Tua was asked daily about symptoms maybe standard operations across the board.  Maybe it isn't,  but until we know more, it's just guesswork

[jofos]

10 minutes ago, squire12 said:

I don't have enough information on the subjective and physical examinations that were conducted by those involved at any of the opportunities since the incident on Sunday.

I know concussion assessment is highly subjective and dependent on the patient being honest with the examiner.  Blatant abnormal findings that are easily observable.....

-- abnormal balance testing responses

-- abnormal coordination testing responses

-- abnormal ocularmotor testing responses

Those are just a few items.  Unfortunately, symptom provocation and/ or comparison to baseline function is often what is going to be apart of the puzzle and athlete answers are a big part of that.  

Regarding the Miami medical staff asking Tua about symptoms on a daily check, I am not sure what the team specific process is for checking in with all players when the players get to the facility each day.  

Many high major college and pro teams have athletes ( all athletes) do a physical psychological readiness assessment.... sleep, stress, mental health, nutrition, pain, stiffness, tightness, swelling , etc, etc.  This information is used by the training, medical nutrition, sports psychology staffs to adjust workouts, rest, recovery.

 

That Tua was asked daily about symptoms maybe standard operations across the board.  Maybe it isn't,  but until we know more, it's just guesswork

Not asking you to play doctor or holding you responsible or anything, just asking if after watching the Bills game and knowing what happened last night do you think they went above and beyond?

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[Kip Smithers]

3 hours ago, 11sanchez11 said:

What I'm saying is if they diagnosed him with a concussion on Sunday he would've missed both gms (2nd half v Bills and TNF)  automatically based on concussion protocol. He went thru concussion protocol on Sunday and was deemed as not having a concussion, so then he was out of concussion protocol. From what I understand if you are diagnosed with a concussion you automatically have to miss 5 days. 

Yeah exactly. And if he was cleared vs Buffalo and played the second half in fact why would Dolphins feel compelled to protect him by not playing vs Cinci?

 

[Kip Smithers]

Why does McDaniel deserve blame? The only he deserves blame is if he knowingly knew he was concussed or coerced the team doctor and somehow the independent doctor to clear him. He’s remains adamant and certain that There was no concussion. He deserves benefit of the doubt. Im not gonna be an armchair doctor and tell medical professionals who evaluated him that they did their job incorrectly. 
 

if it turns out there diagnosis was wrong and so forth then something needs to happen. More information should come out on this. 

[TheKillerNacho]

1 hour ago, squire12 said:

This is a nice idea in concept.  But it relies almost exclusively on the player being honest with any symptoms or feeling of not being fully neurological 100%. 

News flash.....athletes lie about symptoms and symptom severity.

sure, which is why you have someone examine them at least.

Just brainstorming ideas of how the NFL could improve this thing.

[Soko]

17 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Why does McDaniel deserve blame? The only he deserves blame is if he knowingly knew he was concussed or coerced the team doctor and somehow the independent doctor to clear him. He’s remains adamant and certain that There was no concussion. He deserves benefit of the doubt. Im not gonna be an armchair doctor and tell medical professionals who evaluated him that they did their job incorrectly. 
 

if it turns out there diagnosis was wrong and so forth then something needs to happen. More information should come out on this. 

Because diagnosing concussions are not an exact science and all it took is working eye balls to see that Tua suffered a head injury on Sunday. This isn’t like a blood test that’ll give you something like a 99% positive result. A coach, a GM, current players, former players, doctors, all came to this same conclusion, that Tua shouldn’t have been out there. 

I get deferring to medical doctors and relying on people with more complete information, but at what point do you use common sense? Again, there’s nothing definitive about concussion protocol.

[TheKillerNacho]

2 hours ago, jofos said:

Next day follow-up is required why did they check him every day if it was his back?

To be certain given concussion symptoms can crop up sometimes days after? Checking daily even if not required by NFL rules was probably a good, not bad, call.

[squire12]

58 minutes ago, jofos said:

Not asking you to play doctor or holding you responsible or anything, just asking if after watching the Bills game and knowing what happened last night do you think they went above and beyond?

Based on the info posted about Miami asking Tua concussion related question each day.... beyond the day after he was assessed for a concussion which is the required protocol, then yes, they were going above and beyond that protocol.

If you are inquiring about other actions and decisions related to the events of the game on Sunday I can only state that I think there was an error in the process/ decision making that led him ro return to play. 

Who/ how the error came to existence is open for discussion.  Independent neurologist, team MD, other medical staff, coaching staff, GM, Tua, others all may have some % of responsibility in the chain of events leading to that error.