State of the Steelers

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Unless they can use Calvin Austin, they do not have that route running Wr with the quickness to get open on 3rd down.  That was DJ.  CA3 can be that man but the Steelers will have to, you know, scheme him a bit.  like the Chiefs and Dolphins scheme Hill.

 

It is more important for A. Smith's offense to get the run game working so the PA is working.

I think Pickens will be that. 

[jebrick]

Just now, warfelg said:

I think Pickens will be that. 

Then he needs to learn to run routes and not stop or get frustrated.  I would not trust him in that roll yet.

[bigben07MVP]

I see a lot of complaining that holes weren’t filled and 0 suggestions of who we should have signed. Please do not tell me La’el Collins coming off a shredded knee or George Fant, who is not better than Dan Moore.

Did you want us to make Cushenberry one of the highest paid Cs just so that we could take Newton over Barton?

10 mill/year to Biadasz? No thank you

Andre James at 8 mill/year sounds palatable, but then you are committed to a guy who is just “ok” and drafting a high upside guy in the 1st round is a waste.

Mitch Morse would have been great. We brought him in and he decided to sign elsewhere. Probably because he knew we would be looking to replace him ASAP.

And this OT class was HORRIBLE. Jonah freaking Williams got 15/year. Why give out a bad contract to a mediocre OT when this is the deepest OT draft we have seen in recent memory?

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, bigben07MVP said:

I am not sure why you are putting the “OT6” label on Barton.

A mistake on my part, I threw in a Mims comparison in the middle of a Barton conversation. 

But he is another example of a guy people continually pick over Newton. He is very, very likely to need time to develop which means negative development for Broderick Jones. 

I love Mims as a prospect, but it's just where I think we are skipping talent for position. 

I just think that part of this prospect rating can be an optical illusion at times. We don't have something right now therefore we want it. They say don't go grocery shopping when your hungry. We are hungry going into the draft. 

1 hour ago, bigben07MVP said:

These were not cherry-picked I literally just looked up the handful of draft guys I assume you and I mutually respect the most. And I know there’s some out there that are super high on Newton and think he’s the best defensive player in the class. But my point is we are not making some big reach or taking a concession by hypothetically taking Barton over Newton. In fact, the consensus has Barton ranked as an elite level player and ranked ahead of Newton.

And I don't think those first round options are big reaches either. It's just the overwhelming feeling of not doing what's best for the future but what's right for the present. That is NOT the strength of drafting nor is it in the best interest of the talent you are drafting to enter into a place they don't have an option of developing it (or in our case, potentially damaging Jones too).

Are you prepared for them to draft DL, CB, S, WR if that's how the board and the rankings fell? If we don't touch OL can you live with that?

Because if you are not then you are entering the draft like Kevin Costner in draft date with a note that says "OL no matter what". And I don't think that's a successful LONG TERM plan (which has been my entire argument boiled down into one sentence). 

51 minutes ago, warfelg said:

that means a team still reached for something else. 

Good thing this never happens then I guess, right?

Look guys -- again, this can totally work out, but the idea that we took more steps to have better availability of playable players, more flexibility, and potential development opportunities being shunned is just odd to me. 

Good drafts are a 30% hit rate. 2 of 7 players is a win. This is baseball batting averages not NBA free throws. 

30% of first round picks since 2015 did not have their 5th year option picked up. 18% are straight up cut before the end of their 4 years. 

The 33rd team had a study that showed the HIGHEST rate of second contracts for players drafted in the first, second, and third rounds are with different teams than their drafted squad. Read that again. Only 31% of the players drafted in first round of their study signed a second contract with the team that drafted them. 

The draft is so incredibly hard, but I see all these posts about "we can just get a started center in round 4, duh!". You lose me with "but the draft is deep" because history says it doesn't matter. It's hard. And it's even harder when you don't put players in the best positions to succeed and grow (Hi, Broderick!) or draft for specific voids in your team RIGHT NOW. 

Last year's draft class was amazing. It's also the rarity. Even with its success, numbers and history tells us we should be ready for someone to not work out (Hi, Broderick!). 

So while ya'll seem confident we will just nail every piece of this (and if we don't just nail post draft cuts too), I have less faith that the random thing that everyone sucks at to a 30% score just magically becomes a 100% smash rate. 

Again: I want to draft talented players who are not forced into situations they are not ready for to increase our odds of beating the 30%. Wild that's not the consensus. 

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Then he needs to learn to run routes and not stop or get frustrated.  I would not trust him in that roll yet.

I’m fine with that fear so to speak.  I just think that’s who’s going to fill that role, and he started to at the end of the season.

I’m excited for this offense because it plays inside out and really different from what we’ve seen lately.  I think this takes us back to the structure of the Wizenhunt offense with more downfield shots.

[warfelg]

FWIW, and I guarantee I’m in a minority.  Jer’Zhan Newton is overrated.  He’s a pass rusher who tried to play the run on his way to the QB.

[bigben07MVP]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Are you prepared for them to draft DL, CB, S, WR if that's how the board and the rankings fell? If we don't touch OL can you live with that?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills now. This would be bad PROCESS  regardless. This team has been dreadful on the o-line for years now. Signing a stopgap C and OT just so we could completely ignore it in the draft “because the board fell that way” would actually make me lose my mind.

[warfelg]

7 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

I see a lot of complaining that holes weren’t filled and 0 suggestions of who we should have signed. Please do not tell me La’el Collins coming off a shredded knee or George Fant, who is not better than Dan Moore.

Did you want us to make Cushenberry one of the highest paid Cs just so that we could take Newton over Barton?

10 mill/year to Biadasz? No thank you

Andre James at 8 mill/year sounds palatable, but then you are committed to a guy who is just “ok” and drafting a high upside guy in the 1st round is a waste.

Mitch Morse would have been great. We brought him in and he decided to sign elsewhere. Probably because he knew we would be looking to replace him ASAP.

And this OT class was HORRIBLE. Jonah freaking Williams got 15/year. Why give out a bad contract to a mediocre OT when this is the deepest OT draft we have seen in recent memory?

I feel like the guys we have are the stopgap type guys talked about up there.

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills now. This would be bad PROCESS  regardless. This team has been dreadful on the o-line for years now. Signing a stopgap C and OT just so we could completely ignore it in the draft “because the board fell that way” would actually make me lose my mind.

I also think the odds of us staying out at all 4 day 1-2 picks is almost 0. 

[Dcash4]

4 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

his would be bad PROCESS  regardless

So taking the best players is bad process. Got it. 

This is pointless fellas. I punt. 

[skywlker32]

Just now, Dcash4 said:

So taking the best players is bad process. Got it. 

This is pointless fellas. I punt. 

No, signing stopgaps and saying we're good there is bad process.

As stated elsewhere, ALL teams have to select BPA at a position of need, not just pure BPA. NO TEAM selects pure BPA.

 

The ideal process is you have good players at all positions and you draft to replace upcoming cap cuts/FA. We can not do that because of drafts prior to last year. NOTHING in this year's FA would have put us in a GOOD place at our top positions of need.

[3rivers]

10 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

No, signing stopgaps and saying we're good there is bad process.

As stated elsewhere, ALL teams have to select BPA at a position of need, not just pure BPA. NO TEAM selects pure BPA.

 

The ideal process is you have good players at all positions and you draft to replace upcoming cap cuts/FA. We can not do that because of drafts prior to last year. NOTHING in this year's FA would have put us in a GOOD place at our top positions of need.

signing stopgaps , "building the future thru the draft"  leave too many questionmarks and the team is really vulnerable once the injuries add up.  This team has proven that such a philosophy will be consistent in the .529 range.

Khan appears to be getting away from that , but how long will it take to rebuild this roster and coaching staff properly?  They have changed a fair amount of the roster and staff, so if this team fails this year, who is left to blame?

[warfelg]

8 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

how long will it take to rebuild this roster

More than 2 off seasons.

8 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

if this team fails this year, who is left to blame?

See above.

[3rivers]

10 minutes ago, warfelg said:

More than 2 off seasons.

See above.

even if the draft goes as you would like, what are you expecting for the record and playoff record?

 

[Ward4HOF]

28 minutes ago, AFF said:

-Brian Allen was benched if I remember correctly(correct me if I’m wrong)…Williams is a possibility and I will change my tune if that’s what they do. -- Just because Shelton proved to be better, doesn't mean Allen isn't starter worthy

-You’re pumping up 3rd/4th round types into more starting roles day 1 isnt a recipe for success…at all. --Sure, if they are 'upside guys' that need development, but at least two of those guys should do well, early, and have been touted as such via many prospect profiles.  There's a difference between starter-level and future All-Pros.  Lots of league starters are 3rd/4th Rd types.

-Upgradijg over Dan Moore isn’t a desire…it’s common sense since he sucks…just because he starts doesn’t mean he’s good. -- Just because you want better, doesn't mean it's a 'hole'.  It absolutely is a desire.

-WR is deep however almost every year the Steelers need a WR…they’ve had plenty of busts/headcases and they’re constantly putting draft assets into the position…Diontae wasn't a 'headcase'...we traded him, a starter for a starter.  Now you are just utilizing hyperbole to try to make your point.

-DL is more a future need but that future  could be 2 new starters next year with Heyward probably gone and Ogunjobi being an obvious cut candidate. -- Exactly, like I said, not a hole right now.

-CB only has JPJ…Jackson was almost ready to be cut (again, hyperbole--you are guessing that, because we gave him a paycut) and even had to take a paycut as part of being traded…(so, because we worked out a paycut, means that it's a need??  Sorry, but he's a #2 CB, and should be just fine in that role, so again, because he doesn't meet your standard, it's a perceived 'hole', now??) truthfully should your main backup on the outside but if you twist my arm hard enough you can maybe get by for a year…and he’s a FA at end of the year.  -- Exactly, not a hole a present time!

-Slot CB has been a void since Hilton left.  -- Can Sullivan be upgraded???  Sure, but we can sign him, and/or Peterson who is actually a decent Slot at this point in his career, so options are available.

 

I don’t see how you can view them as needs…just cause you have bodies there doesn’t make them not needs. -- That's not what I'm saying.  What I and many others are saying, are that there are last year's starters, in the position of RT and #2 CB.  DL is fine for a year.  As is Nickel, if we sign back Sullivan or Peterson, thus, not needs, but sure, we could draft prospects there, but they aren't 'needs' The only 'needs',  are OC, and #2 WR...we have 7 picks, 4 of which on days 1 and 2.  I don't see that as a 'sky is falling' scenario.  And as pointed out, the #2 Receiver in an Arthur Smith offense, often comes from the TE position, which we have 2 good ones. 

Obviously, it's an 'agree to disagree' situation.  You see holes where many others don't.  Doesn't make it a fact.