State of the Steelers

[Dcash4]

6 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

Jfc? You are the one saying you feel like you’re taking crazy pills because we didn’t sign George Fant (31 years old and extremely mediocre) or La’el Collins (30 years old, coming off a torn ACL/MCL, and hasn’t been good since his Dallas days). 

Either would have at least been on par with Dan Moore’s abilities and allowed Broderick Jones to play LT. Improving our OL and contributing to his long term development. 

Both would have kept you from needing to start a rookie right away, but wouldn’t have kept you from doing so if able. 

So, I gues you’re right. Terrible plan to improve the team, decrease the necessity of high draft stock, and allow for development. What an awful idea. 

[skywlker32]

It's funny that LT is being considered amongst "holes," when last year's starter, Dan Moore, is on the roster still. Is this a likely position that they will look to improve? Hopefully yes. Do they actually have no LT, no. This goes for OC to a lesser extent in that they may be comfortable going with what they have if needed. Would I have liked if they got a FA to fill all of the positions of need? Yes, but we do not sign players in a vacuum. We can not force the players to sign here at a reasonable price. They tried to get a OC early in FA, but could not get a contract signed (whether due to price negotiation or want of the player to just play elsewhere regardless). According to reports, we may be making a draft day trade at WR (we'll see). That basically leaves NCB, depth at DL, depth at S. Maybe I'm missing something, but seems about what you should expect going into the draft.

[bigben07MVP]

19 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Either would have at least been on par with Dan Moore’s abilities and allowed Broderick Jones to play LT. Improving our OL and contributing to his long term development. 

Both would have kept you from needing to start a rookie right away, but wouldn’t have kept you from doing so if able. 

So, I gues you’re right. Terrible plan to improve the team, decrease the necessity of high draft stock, and allow for development. What an awful idea. 

I’m sorry but if those are you two examples of missed opportunities to improve the team then idk what to tell you. There are still players on the market right now that I would prefer. 

I just think you’re overreacting man. We can’t see the full picture yet, have a little faith in Omar. I’m not gonna hold not signing injury prone, over the hill vets above the age of 30 against him just yet. 

[warfelg]

23 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

I’m sorry but if those are you two examples of missed opportunities to improve the team then idk what to tell you. There are still players on the market right now that I would prefer. 

I just think you’re overreacting man. We can’t see the full picture yet, have a little faith in Omar. I’m not gonna hold not signing injury prone, over the hill vets above the age of 30 against him just yet. 

Yup. Those guys (and both those guys signed anyways) are stop gaps anyways that you would be drafting someone to replace them. On top of that, I wouldn’t even rule out those guys getting beat out in camp. 
 

Like I understand the discouragement of they didn’t do everything someone hoped. But I don’t understand the basic insistence that moves for the here and now overrule the building for the future. Even though I disagreed with the “do enough for the playoffs” with Ben, I could understand it. I can’t understand these “do the thing” for making the playoffs when this team has no future. 

[3rivers]

considering the fact tomlin and company like Moore, I am starting to see LT as less of a need in their eyes. Center would still seem like a need and if the WR trade doesn't happen, then WR could be the RD1 pick.  I was hoping OT then C, but doubt it happens considering the WR need unless  they feel a WR in RD3 will do. 

Frazier is a player I could see being a top level pro for a decade, but will we draft him?

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

But I don’t understand the basic insistence that moves for the here and now overrule the building for the future

Where are you getting this? The whole conversation stems from my post where I feel the inability to fill out the roster may cause us not to go into the draft with our futures best interest in mind. 

Our future is better if last years first round pick reps on the side of the football at the position they ultimately want him to play. Our future is better if we are taking the best players, not the best players at certain positions. The idea that I’m getting so much pushback on those concepts baffles me. 

The only thing you guys seem to have as a counter is hope. Hope they land the right picks at the right positions. Hope that good players get cut. Hope we make a trade. You hope they thread the needle. You know the saying about hope and hands filling up right? I’m just so much more interested in risk mitigation which would have cost little and wouldn’t hinder any of our ability to do what we hope to do anyway. It just gives you better options. 

I’m generally an optimistic person. But this isn’t a good business model. And once again that doesn’t mean that it can’t work out…but I’d really like to hear if there’s someone who wants to make this the year in year our strategy moving forward. I sure don’t. 

@skywlker32said something before I agreed with and it’s an unknown. Maybe they did try to sign people and couldn’t. I could appreciate that at least. There’s a talent in having a plan go to hell and creating the pivot. But this off-season seems scattered and deliberate in some ways in terms of the current roster. If you want my honest opinions; they misread the center market and overvalue Donte Jackson and Dan Moore, while undervaluing the cost of Jones playing the wrong position.  
 

I’m just not excited about it. it feels like we had a true opportunity to build off a tremendous 2023 off-season and didn’t do it. 

Edited April 22 by Dcash4

[bigben07MVP]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Where are you getting this? The whole conversation stems from my post where I feel the inability to fill out the roster may cause us not to go into the draft with our futures best interest in mind. 

Our future is better if last years first round pick reps on the side of the football at the position they ultimately want him to play. Our future is better if we are taking the best players, not the best players at certain positions. The idea that I’m getting so much pushback on those concepts baffles me. 

The only thing you guys seem to have as a counter is hope. Hope they land the right picks at the right positions. Hope that good players get cut. Hope we make a trade. You hope they thread the needle. You know the saying about hope and hands filling up right? I’m just so much more interested in risk mitigation which would have cost little and wouldn’t hinder any of our ability to do what we hope to do anyway. It just gives you better options. 

I’m generally an optimistic person. But this isn’t a good business model. And once again that doesn’t mean that it can’t work out…but I’d really like to hear if there’s someone who wants to make this the year in year our strategy moving forward. I sure don’t. 

@skywlker32said something before I agreed with and it’s an unknown. Maybe they did try to sign people and couldn’t. I could appreciate that at least. There’s a talent in having a plan go to hell and creating the pivot. But this off-season seems scattered and deliberate in some ways in terms of the current roster. If you want my honest opinions; they misread the center market and overvalue Donte Jackson and Dan Moore, while undervaluing the cost of Jones playing the wrong position.  
 

I’m just not excited about it. it feels like we had a true opportunity to build off a tremendous 2023 off-season and didn’t do it. 

You say last year we signed guys to “fill needs” aka found capable starters at all positions before the draft which allowed us to just go BPA, yet everyone and their mother knew we were taking a OT, CB, and DL in some order with the first 3 picks.

It’s the same thing this year but with C, OT, WR, and maybe CB. 

Only the truly elite rosters go into the draft and actually go BPA. We are far from that. We will address some holes and sign or trade for guys after the draft/pre season to fill in the gaps. Just like we do every year. 

 

[skywlker32]

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Where are you getting this? The whole conversation stems from my post where I feel the inability to fill out the roster may cause us not to go into the draft with our futures best interest in mind. 

Our future is better if last years first round pick reps on the side of the football at the position they ultimately want him to play. Our future is better if we are taking the best players, not the best players at certain positions. The idea that I’m getting so much pushback on those concepts baffles me. 

The only thing you guys seem to have as a counter is hope. Hope they land the right picks at the right positions. Hope that good players get cut. Hope we make a trade. You hope they thread the needle. You know the saying about hope and hands filling up right? I’m just so much more interested in risk mitigation which would have cost little and wouldn’t hinder any of our ability to do what we hope to do anyway. It just gives you better options. 

I’m generally an optimistic person. But this isn’t a good business model. And once again that doesn’t mean that it can’t work out…but I’d really like to hear if there’s someone who wants to make this the year in year our strategy moving forward. I sure don’t. 

@skywlker32said something before I agreed with and it’s an unknown. Maybe they did try to sign people and couldn’t. I could appreciate that at least. There’s a talent in having a plan go to hell and creating the pivot. But this off-season seems scattered and deliberate in some ways in terms of the current roster. If you want my honest opinions; they misread the center market and overvalue Donte Jackson and Dan Moore, while undervaluing the cost of Jones playing the wrong position.  
 

I’m just not excited about it. it feels like we had a true opportunity to build off a tremendous 2023 off-season and didn’t do it. 

I forget which FA OC it was, but I seem to remember it being pretty widely reported that they at the very least went hard at 1 free agent.

[bigben07MVP]

@Dcash4 one more note… I seem to recall last year everyone on here complaining that Broderick should have replaced Dan Moore/Chucks much earlier than he did. Same with Peterson/Levi Wallace and JPJ. Heck I still think Benton should’ve been getting a lot more of Larry O’s snaps all season. 

So the idea of signing these mediocre FA just to check a box isn’t that appealing to me. If we draft Graham Barton I want him thrown in the fire and starting week 1, not watching a Mason Cole level player struggling through week 6 before they finally sit him. I don’t want to have to watch George Fant play RT (or worse Dan Moore at LT and Jones at RT) knowing we have an Amarius Mims level talent sitting on the bench ready to go.

Maybe it’s a good thing they are switching up their process from previous years. We will have less bad/mediocre vets blocking PT from our day 1 and 2 draft picks. 

 

[Dcash4]

26 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

Amarius Mims level talent sitting on the bench ready to go.

So are you guaranteeing he - and any other draft pick - are ready? A guy who started 8 games in college? Barton, absolutely yes. Far more likely to be ready with 4 years and 40 starts under his belt. 

I think Mims could be GREAT, but that doesn’t mean he is ready. Broderick Jones had double the starts and wasn’t ready. The position change didn’t help but he rated 55th of 58 OTs in pass blocking. He needed development. 

Guys like Benton (36 starts) and Porter (31) were way more ready. Totally agree they should have played earlier, but that doesn’t mean every second round pick is. They also had the ability to play supplementary roles early on. C and OT do not have that luxury. You are either playing or you’re not.

Again, the pushback I’m getting is for wishing we had more options and flexibility to value development (if needed) and not be forced into position drafting (if desired). 

Im sorry, I just don’t get it. My best case scenario is Broderick Jones already back at LT (you mentioned him at RT as a worse scenario..) and has nothing stopping a rookie from taking over at RT outside of their own readiness. Are you really saying that’s not a BETTER scenario than what we are currently in? 

Seems far more like you guys are just trying to justify the off-season rather than champion it…which is more understandable than thinking this is sound strategy to repeat each year. 

[43M]

We haven't even seen what direction the Steelers are going in the draft, yet.

The Steelers never take pure BPA anyway.  They take the player at the top of their board at areas of need.    

They could easily take a RT late day 2 or early day 3 and make them compete for starter with another vet they eventually sign.  They dont HAVE to force the pick early if it isn't there.

Center doesn't have to be forced either.   There are good options early, some decent options in the mid rounds and even some lateral vet options.   We may not definitely improve at center, but I doubt we go backwards.

The only position I see us possibly going backwards at is WR.

I certainly dont love our strategy or understand it, but I will wait until this weekend to really weigh in, because depending how the draft shakes out,it could (and should) shed some light on what the plan is and will be going forward.

If we start reaching and/or making odd picks, then I will question whether they ever had a real plan.

Signing mediocre FAs just to fill holes might ease some minds, but doesn't exactly move the needle in any meaningful way.

[3rivers]

10 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Our future is better if last years first round pick reps on the side of the football at the position they ultimately want him to play. Our future is better if we are taking the best players, not the best players at certain positions. The idea that I’m getting so much pushback on those concepts baffles me. 

for the longest time, the future has been set to be mediocre.   

 

10 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

If you want my honest opinions; they misread the center market and overvalue Donte Jackson and Dan Moore, while undervaluing the cost of Jones playing the wrong position.  

totally agree. If we had Munchak I would have more patience with Moore, but as it is this is still a major need IMO (OT) .  This coaching staff has wasted players (dotson) and have had way too much patience with others (Moore, mitch, kp, dionte, levi, patrick) 

see what happens this year.  They better get a C or OT in the first 2 rounds, one of those has to be considered a major need

[warfelg]

5 hours ago, 43M said:

They could easily take a RT late day 2 or early day 3 and make them compete for starter with another vet they eventually sign.  They dont HAVE to force the pick early if it isn't there.

Center doesn't have to be forced either.   There are good options early, some decent options in the mid rounds and even some lateral vet options.   We may not definitely improve at center, but I doubt we go backwards.

Amen, and this is why I don't mind the strategy.  I said it a few times, and it wasn't included in quotes, but having so many "holes" means we aren't pinned into a single option.  I created a whole thread around the "worst case scenario" and there was still good BPA's.  What's kinda insane to me, in 2012-2022 we really have taken BPA in round 1 once, possibly twice. So to look at that, this list is Jarvis Jones, Ryan Shazier, Bud Dupree, Artie Burns, TJ Watt, Terrell Edmunds, Devin Bush, Najee Harris, Kenny Pickett.

To me, draft talk is boring this year for a good reason.  There's enough talent and depth at these 4 positions we've ID'ed as needs in C, RT, WR, CB that you are going to get a good one at those positions.  How often at 20 can you say you have your pick of one of the top 6 OT's, your pick of OC's, one of the top 4 CB's, and able to kick off a run on WR's? Typically we're lamenting this the other way of good at positions like that making it down to the pick we're at.

5 hours ago, 43M said:

Signing mediocre FAs just to fill holes might ease some minds, but doesn't exactly move the needle in any meaningful way.

Yup. IMO we've been there done that. On top of that, Tomlin has himself said that when there's a toss up for starting role the vet gets the edge because they've "been there done that" and have the experience edge.  So even if we signed these mediocre FA's they would likely play too long like @bigben07MVP pointed out happened with Moore/Chucks over Jones, Wallace/Peterson over JPJ, and Larry O over Benton.

The other thought I've been having with some guys still out there:

~ I think Mason Cole is back if they don't get one of these "handful of day 1 starters" Khan talked about and is in a more open competition with Anderson and Herbig.

~ I think that Patrick Peterson is back if they don't get a boundary or NCB in the first 4 rounds.  Heck I think he's been told to be ready because if that doesn't happen or someone gets injured, he's getting a call.

I do think that OT is the one to happen early because there isn't really a FA option out there to cover your back so to speak if you don't land someone who you feel comfortable starting.  Because at tackle, specifically right, you would pick between Leno (hasn't played there), Becton (walking MedExpress), and Hubbard (ultimate stop gap guy).

At least with WR you can fill the room with guys by adding Gallup, Boyd, Michael Thomas (I wouldn't), MVS.

[jebrick]

For some positions, drafties need less training on how to do their job.  While the defense is not as complicated as LeBeau's defense, most of the players drafted need to learn their craft a little bit before starting.  Oline is an exception IF they are mostly solid in technique.

These last 2 years may be exceptions due to the COVID years and older players entering the draft.  Older and with more playing time.  It does not mean they have been well coached.  I would say 90% of the college coaches teach just enough to run their system.  Especially D1, where they are under so much pressure to win.

[Dcash4]

 

Happy Draftsmas Adam ya'll.