How much blame belongs to George Paton?

[jolly red giant]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

A lot of the usual inflammatory Twitter trolls in Broncos world are out in full force against Paton. All I will say is be careful what you wish for with respect to firing him. Anyone, in any industry, needs to ultimately be held to account for the performance of their team/business/whatever it is. But Paton's first two years have in part been him cleaning up the messes up the late Elway era.

As I've said before, Paton needs to be judged based on how he handles the mess he's gotten himself into with Russ. But I will just say the entire fanbase was clamoring for any kind of QB we could possibly get and he went out and swung for the fences. That, for my money, is a better all in move than any of the patchwork garbage Elway did over the years. I think Paton did well to get a R1 back for Chubb. Quick, decisive choices need to be made though. If he's gonna roll with Hackett and Russ, things need to change immediately. 

I think that Paton did what every GM who need a QB would have done - pulled the trigger to get Wilson. Remember Wilson was in demand - WASH offer 3 first rounders. Yes - a small number of people warned that Wilson had red flags - but the move was universally acclaimed and Paton should not carry the can because it has been a mess this season.

The decision I have a problem with was the hiring of Hackett (and yes I wanted Quinn). He was a 'hot young coordinator' - but there were clear red flags - his time as OC with the Jags was meh at best and he wasn't really the OC at GB. The fact that Rodgers said he was a funny guy to be around and they played darts was a big red flag for me. That coupled with the bunch of untried and untested rookies that Hackett intended to bring in as coaches. Yes - Hackett wanted Stenavich - and we ended up with Outten. But the Broncos also interviewed Luke Getsy for the HC position - and he chose to go to the Bears as OC. Why did Hackett not bring him to Denver - he certainly had far more going for him as an OC than Outten. Hackett sacked Munchak and Kuper and the OL has been a dumpsterfire since. We have non-entities like Weathley, Moreland, Barry, Steele, Grossi and Chinyoung coaching on the offence - none of whom have any kind of pedigree and their only path to the job seems to be that they are buddies with Hackett. 

Paton should carry the can for not researching Hackett properly and then for allowing Hackett to engage in nepotism rather than finding the best guy for the jobs available. Now he needs to fix it and fix it fast. It would be an absolute disater to keep Hackett. We have a lot of good young kids on the team and Hackett and his staff are hampering their development. Get a new HC - give it one season to see if Wilson can become servicable - and if not cut bait, eat the dead cap and start the rebuild.

I would try and get Quinn. He is not the best potential candidate available, but he wanted to come to Denver last season when the team didn't have a QB (and it was the only HC job he wanted) - and if we had taken Quinn then in my opinion we would definitely be significantly better than the 3-9 at the moment. To start with he would not have made the 'it starts with me' mantra of Hackett after every game - he would have actually acted to fix the problem - Hackett doesn't even know what the problem is. Sure if Sean Payton was willing to come to Denver then the Walmarts have the cash to throw a massive salary at him - but remember Payton will have his pick of the jobs and he is still under contract to the Saints (so hiring him will come at a significant cost).

[The Helicopter]

2 hours ago, broncos67 said:

A lot of the usual inflammatory Twitter trolls in Broncos world are out in full force against Paton. All I will say is be careful what you wish for with respect to firing him. Anyone, in any industry, needs to ultimately be held to account for the performance of their team/business/whatever it is. But Paton's first two years have in part been him cleaning up the messes up the late Elway era.

As I've said before, Paton needs to be judged based on how he handles the mess he's gotten himself into with Russ. But I will just say the entire fanbase was clamoring for any kind of QB we could possibly get and he went out and swung for the fences. That, for my money, is a better all in move than any of the patchwork garbage Elway did over the years. I think Paton did well to get a R1 back for Chubb. Quick, decisive choices need to be made though. If he's gonna roll with Hackett and Russ, things need to change immediately. 

This is an interesting path...if Paton is fired, I would assume the entire coaching staff goes too. I would also wonder what happens with RW. Firing Paton, wow, welcome to Wally World.

[AKRNA]

5 hours ago, broncos67 said:

A lot of the usual inflammatory Twitter trolls in Broncos world are out in full force against Paton. All I will say is be careful what you wish for with respect to firing him. Anyone, in any industry, needs to ultimately be held to account for the performance of their team/business/whatever it is. But Paton's first two years have in part been him cleaning up the messes up the late Elway era.

As I've said before, Paton needs to be judged based on how he handles the mess he's gotten himself into with Russ. But I will just say the entire fanbase was clamoring for any kind of QB we could possibly get and he went out and swung for the fences. That, for my money, is a better all in move than any of the patchwork garbage Elway did over the years. I think Paton did well to get a R1 back for Chubb. Quick, decisive choices need to be made though. If he's gonna roll with Hackett and Russ, things need to change immediately. 

I disagree. Small ball is the way to success in the NFL, always has been. We just "swung for the fences", missed and took a promising,improving team right to the bottom.

 

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

Like Ben said, Twitter and sports radio is all about firing George - Stokley and Zach just said it’s “99%” that George is fired - as well as Hackett and the staff. The staff does need to go; I’d keep Klint and Evero and maybe a few others but truthfully a new HC is going to want the ability to hire his own staff. 

But firing George, if that’s the route the Walmarts take, I’m going to have serious qualms about supporting the team under their leadership. By their own admission, the Walmarts aren’t football people, so what do they do? Go Patriot Way with Jon Robinson (who in turn would hire a NE guy, quite possibly Bill O’Brein)? No. Thank. You. 

As most of us have said, the trade for Russ is a move 99% of other GMs make under the same circumstances. George has done an above average job in the draft, quite well in veteran free agency, and has us in very good cap position, even with the huge Russ contract. Everyone acts like it was George and George alone that pushed for the extension, I have no evidence, but how could the Walmarts not have at least been on board with it, if not pushing for it to settle the QB question long term  (which almost everyone thought we did) rather than have it hanging over the team all year long. How do you hang George for that? 

[The Helicopter]

32 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Like Ben said, Twitter and sports radio is all about firing George - Stokley and Zach just said it’s “99%” that George is fired - as well as Hackett and the staff. The staff does need to go; I’d keep Klint and Evero and maybe a few others but truthfully a new HC is going to want the ability to hire his own staff. 

But firing George, if that’s the route the Walmarts take, I’m going to have serious qualms about supporting the team under their leadership. By their own admission, the Walmarts aren’t football people, so what do they do? Go Patriot Way with Jon Robinson (who in turn would hire a NE guy, quite possibly Bill O’Brein)? No. Thank. You. 

As most of us have said, the trade for Russ is a move 99% of other GMs make under the same circumstances. George has done an above average job in the draft, quite well in veteran free agency, and has us in very good cap position, even with the huge Russ contract. Everyone acts like it was George and George alone that pushed for the extension, I have no evidence, but how could the Walmarts not have at least been on board with it, if not pushing for it to settle the QB question long term  (which almost everyone thought we did) rather than have it hanging over the team all year long. How do you hang George for that? 

I agree, I'm not happy with some of George's moves, but this can get so much worse. We'll soon find out who's in charge and with it our direction...as a long time Bronco fan this feels very helpless, not yet hopeless.

[AnAngryAmerican]

7 hours ago, The Helicopter said:

I agree, I'm not happy with some of George's moves, but this can get so much worse. We'll soon find out who's in charge and with it our direction...as a long time Bronco fan this feels very helpless, not yet hopeless.

Oh there’s plenty of things George has done that are fair game - but using the trade for Russ and the the subsequent contract - are not among them.

Criticize extending Sutton, hiring Hackett (though I’ve said before I see the reasons he did and none of them have to do to Aaron Rodgers), letting Hackett hire a rookie staff, a few picks here and there. But it’s just despicable the amount of Monday morning QBing going on in the fanbase and among the media.

[anewdawn]

11 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Oh there’s plenty of things George has done that are fair game - but using the trade for Russ and the the subsequent contract - are not among them.

Criticize extending Sutton, hiring Hackett (though I’ve said before I see the reasons he did and none of them have to do to Aaron Rodgers), letting Hackett hire a rookie staff, a few picks here and there. But it’s just despicable the amount of Monday morning QBing going on in the fanbase and among the media.

I would bet that the Waltons are already Monday morning qbing.  I would bet they already have someone they respect with regard to football evaluating the whole team and everyone associated with running it.  Maybe more than one person.  It likely started very early in this season and now the foundation for massive changes is likely already in the works in my measly opinion.  How can you not change things after this miserable, unbearable season?   As mentioned by so many on this thread you cannot fault Paton for everything.  The trade was fair but it derailed the train and now heads will roll and one of those heads will likely be his, imo.   

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, anewdawn said:

I would bet that the Waltons are already Monday morning qbing.  I would bet they already have someone they respect with regard to football evaluating the whole team and everyone associated with running it.  Maybe more than one person.  It likely started very early in this season and now the foundation for massive changes is likely already in the works in my measly opinion.  How can you not change things after this miserable, unbearable season?   As mentioned by so many on this thread you cannot fault Paton for everything.  The trade was fair but it derailed the train and now heads will roll and one of those heads will likely be his, imo.   

Do you trust the Walmarts to make the right GM hire then? Based upon what? By their own admission they’re not football people. Who are their shadow team of advisors? 

Remember it was Ellis and Elway, with input from a few others, who hired George from the 5 GM candidates they interviewed. Say what you want about Elway and Ellis, and I’ve said plenty over the years, but they had football experience, decades of it, and three rings too show for it. The Walmarts have a collective 4 months of football experience. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

Furthermore, regarding George's work building the coaching staff, we have to look at the process used and determine whether or not the process, not the result, was flawed. 

Firstly, he cast a very wide net. IRRC, they had a list something like 25 candidates and they interviewed 10. That's a huge pool of candidates. Two they did not interview who ended up getting jobs and have been successful - Brian Daboll and Mike McDaniel - weren't among the interviewees. In hindsight that looks like a mistake but, if you look at the traits of each - Daboll having come from the Patriot system, 18 of his 21 years in coaching have been under the Belichick/Saban system, one that has had not only minimal success but, far more often, colossal failures, including here. McDaniel had the right pedigree but is also a, shall we say, different personality. I could see why they shied away from both even though it appears now, in hindsight, to be have been mistakes. 

So ask yourself, was the process - casting a huge net of interviewees, conducting second interviews with three finalists - one a failed former HC with a defensive pedigree and two rookie offensive minds from successful franchises with long and diverse experience. I'd answer in the negative. 

What was a flawed process - our hired in 2017 and 2019 (Vance and Fangio). In 2017, Elway/Ellis interviewed three - Vance, Kyle, Dave Toub. Toub was an off-the-wall choice who I don't think has even gotten another interview since ours. But they went in preferring Vance, he was the front-runner before they even sat down with any of the three. Kyle blew them away but they (mistakenly) went with their original front-runner. It was a flawed process. 

In 2019 the franchise had fallen on hard times and we had a pretty sorry lot of choices. They hired one of the five they interviewed to the staff - Munchalk - but, again, went with their preconceived choice in Vic with the idea that Gary Kubiak would be joining in a OC/Co-HC kind of role. When that blew up, they went back to a familiar name and brought in Mike McCoy (ouch) to run the offense. It was a flawed process. 

What about the way in which George let Hackett fill out his staff. George, making his first hire, went with the tried and true method of letting his HC fill out his staff. He did so with guys with whom he had prior working and personal relationships and brought in Klint Kubiak (a well regarded up-and-comer) who had scheme familiarity. Evero is Hackett's best friend dating back to their time at UCLA but he was also, like Klint, an up-and-coming coaching candidate from a successful system who appeared ready to take the next step. That one worked. The others, such as Outten, were mistakes. Again, though, you must ask, was letting Hackett fill out his staff in his vision with guys with whom he had prior established personal and professional relationships a mistake? Only in hindsight. Yes, they should have kept Munchalk and yes they should have  brought on guys with more lengthy resumes, but you can't fault George too heavily, at least not enough to take his job from him, for his process. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by AnAngryAmerican

[The Helicopter]

39 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Do you trust the Walmarts to make the right GM hire then? Based upon what? By their own admission they’re not football people. Who are their shadow team of advisors? 

Remember it was Ellis and Elway, with input from a few others, who hired George from the 5 GM candidates they interviewed. Say what you want about Elway and Ellis, and I’ve said plenty over the years, but they had football experience, decades of it, and three rings too show for it. The Walmarts have a collective 4 months of football experience. 

I fear a future run by the Walmart's more than I worry about our culture under Paton. I no longer live in Colorado so I'm not influenced by the local media. Sounds like they are ok digging graves as long as they get paid.

[AnAngryAmerican]

52 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

I fear a future run by the Walmart's more than I worry about our culture under Paton. I no longer live in Colorado so I'm not influenced by the local media. Sounds like they are ok digging graves as long as they get paid.

Today both Schefter and Klis said George isn’t going anywhere. So take that for what it’s worth. 

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Do you trust the Walmarts to make the right GM hire then? Based upon what? By their own admission they’re not football people. Who are their shadow team of advisors? 

Remember it was Ellis and Elway, with input from a few others, who hired George from the 5 GM candidates they interviewed. Say what you want about Elway and Ellis, and I’ve said plenty over the years, but they had football experience, decades of it, and three rings too show for it. The Walmarts have a collective 4 months of football experience. 

Good points. George was never hired to lead the organization. Never hired to hire coaches or direct monumental trades and salary cap issues. He was hired to oversee the draft and all personnel decisions, knowing that Elway and Ellis would have the ultimate say. In that definition of GM he was by far the best we've ever had. In a league where "draft and develop" is and always has been king, how exactly does firing George help this team. Just define his roles according to why he was hired and what he does so well and find a guy to oversee the entire football operation.

Protecting assets is a prime responsibility for any business. I'll guarantee any prospective HC would not have had the ability to replace Alex Gibbs, Joe Collier, etc. without a better replacement. Same should have held true here. If it had we wouldn't be in this mess. A 1st time HC (Hackett) wanting the ability to fire Munch and Kuper, Herring, etc would've had quite a fight on his hands.

As much as George is the best draft guy we've ever had, Vic and staff were the best "develop" guys we've ever had. 

So, we've already blown up much of the develop part. Are we really going to do the same with the "draft"?

[AnAngryAmerican]

2 hours ago, AKRNA said:

Good points. George was never hired to lead the organization. Never hired to hire coaches or direct monumental trades and salary cap issues. He was hired to oversee the draft and all personnel decisions, knowing that Elway and Ellis would have the ultimate say. In that definition of GM he was by far the best we've ever had. In a league where "draft and develop" is and always has been king, how exactly does firing George help this team. Just define his roles according to why he was hired and what he does so well and find a guy to oversee the entire football operation.

Protecting assets is a prime responsibility for any business. I'll guarantee any prospective HC would not have had the ability to replace Alex Gibbs, Joe Collier, etc. without a better replacement. Same should have held true here. If it had we wouldn't be in this mess. A 1st time HC (Hackett) wanting the ability to fire Munch and Kuper, Herring, etc would've had quite a fight on his hands.

As much as George is the best draft guy we've ever had, Vic and staff were the best "develop" guys we've ever had. 

So, we've already blown up much of the develop part. Are we really going to do the same with the "draft"?

I cannot tell if there is some sarcasm in here or not, but George was hired by Elway/Ellis to be the full GM - which is more than Player Personnel Director - he was, from the day he was hired, the team’s “football czar,” replacing Elway, who remained as an advisor but had no real power, by his own admission. 

Furthermore, the Walmarts said George is their football guy, he is in charge of all things football while Damani Leech handles business/stadium stuff. 

As I mentioned, George has made mistakes, like all GMs do, and some of them are big ones. Huge ones. Enormously consequential ones. But I also think he deserves a chance to right the ship rather than have the Walmarts try to figure it out on their own. Even with the ancillary owners - yes, Secretary Rice is a passionate football fan, Sir Hamilton is a world renowned race car driver, Mrs Hobson chaired Starbucks - they’re not dyed in the wool football people and neither are the Walmarts. 

Give George - an exceptionally well regarded football person by all accounts, his mistakes (most of them only realized in hindsight) L not withstanding, a chance to right the ship with a new coaching staff and some greater accountability in the building. 

[champ11]

George's draft record is flawless, but his FA performance is average. The two midseason trades were pretty good. He put the Broncos in maybe the worst position in football this offseason with the QB and coach moves. So his scale is probably tipping much more on the "bad" performance side of things. I think he should get another chance, but he should definitely feel the heat on his seat 

[AnAngryAmerican]

52 minutes ago, champ11 said:

George's draft record is flawless, but his FA performance is average. The two midseason trades were pretty good. He put the Broncos in maybe the worst position in football this offseason with the QB and coach moves. So his scale is probably tipping much more on the "bad" performance side of things. I think he should get another chance, but he should definitely feel the heat on his seat 

Deuce I’ll quibble a bit.

I think the FA moves (Russ not considered) have been good. I think the drafts have been good too. Neither great, neither bad.

Talk radio/Twitter has gotten people riled up over Nick Bonito (who fans like us knew was a work in progress coming from a school in a conference that doesn’t play defense) playing, OMG, one snap last week. 

Gregory was a monster when on the field but also a major injury risk. Maybe that wasn’t the right move to make. Paying Sutton and Patrick looked good at the time. Not so good now. 

I’m not going to say George has been flawless. The moves he’s made - coaching hires, draft picks, FAs, contract extensions, in-season trades - looked damn good at the time. Some still do, some very much do not. The ones that look bad, however, mostly only look bad in hindsight.