How did the most admired organization in sports become the laughing stock?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Well if he can throw to open receivers and hand the ball off he had 21 points against the Lions.

Only if we subbed him in when we got to the red zone.

In 2008, Rodgers went 6-10 his first year as a starter with a better offensive roster than this team has.

If Love plays now, he will struggle no matter how good he is, and the fan base will continue to be pissed off and ***** about him too.

Love coming in to run a team in disarray and making things better seems extremely unlikely.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Ragnar Danneskjold

[Smidgeon]

34 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

I am neither, but I reject your hypothesis.  If your back to back MVP can’t make this situation work to even a basic level, what makes anyone think the inexperienced guy who hasn’t looked good can come in and produce.

Even if Love has advanced to the level of legit starter, I doubt we could perceive that given what is going on with this team.

I reject your hypothesis, the one that implies he has objectively looked only bad when he has played. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, Smidgeon said:

I reject your hypothesis, the one that implies he has objectively looked only bad when he has played. 

I can live with that.

An aside,  not looking good (which is what I said) is different than looking bad.  

[incognito_man]

30 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Not *an* offense.  This offense.

I think there is a lot of motivated reasoning around Jordan Love on this board right now.

 

I think one is utterly in denial if they don't think Love is capable of leading THIS offense to more points against Detroit.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, incognito_man said:

I think one is utterly in denial if they don't think Love is capable of leading THIS offense to more points against Detroit.

I can live with that assessment as well.

[GHARMON9]

24 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Only if we subbed him in when we got to the red zone.

In 2008, Rodgers went 6-10 his first year as a starter with a better offensive roster than this team has.

If Love plays now, he will struggle no matter how good he is, and the fan base will continue to be pissed off and ***** about him too.

Love coming in to run a team in disarray and making things better seems extremely unlikely.

I don't think that's where most Packers fans are at. 

Love just following the script gives us a true look at how bad or good the game plan may be on Offense. If we start moving the ball with consistency, it says a lot about Rodgers. If the offense flutters even worse with Love, then we look at Lafluer. We can at least pinpoint the true source of the problems. Playing Rodgers doesn't benefit us in any regard going forward.

Edited November 8, 2022 by GHARMON9

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

1 minute ago, GHARMON9 said:

I don't think that's where most Packers fans our at. 

Love just following the script gives us a true look at how bad or good the game plan may be on Offense. If we start moving the ball with consistency, it says a lot about Rodgers. If the offense flutters even worse with Love, then we look at Lafluer. We can at least pinpoint the true source of the problems. Playing Rodgers doesn't benefit us in any regard going forward.

Like most of the conversation in this thread, your post is about finding a scapegoat for a season that turned bad.

Love struggling tells you nothing about scheme.   
 

Between salary cap issues, injuries, rookies that haven’t popped yet, and Rodgers being a head case, this team is struggling.  Love ain’t fixing that, sorry.

[MrBobGray]

19 hours ago, Norm said:

I don't think this is true. But I do think he wanted to go out on his terms and not the teams. I truly believe he played his tail off to make sure he could stay and not get replaced. But then he got too comfortable on top of not getting enough help. He's just... IDK the word. He's not right. He hesitates, he tries to do too much then at other times it's like he thinks there's going to be nothing he can do. 

He still has some flashes. His few first down scramble runs late this year fired me up a bit.

The arm is still there, but it's just not right. Maybe it's the thumb or some fundamental thing. Whole team is just out of whack. It's rough.

 

Not happy that we have to rebuild WITH him. I always thought we had two options, both at once is awful. 

There's a couple issues with Rodgers IMO, but I do truly believe that one of the biggest for years now is that the arm isn't there, at least in the way it was for much of his career.  If I have time I'll try and actually do a bigger post on this, but the gist is that Rodgers has always had a really odd throwing methodology, and age + wear and tear have slowly eroded his ability to use it.  Throwing a football, in terms of physics, is just basic force transfer; generate force in your body, transfer it to the ball and let go.  The more force you generate with your body, the further and faster you can throw the ball.  The basic fundamental throwing motion is to generate the power through your legs and hips to start, creating explosive rotation that is synced up with the cocking and releasing of the football.  The less power you generate with your lower body, the more you have to make up for it with your upper body rotation and acceleration of the arm through the motion.  Rodgers for years has been an absolute magician in his ability to generate immense rotational torque from a relatively static position without using his legs, and I cannot stress enough how crazy that is.  Completely disconnecting the motion of your upper body from your lower body is hard enough without it being a explosive rotational movement.  I mean, think about that: your upper and lower body are awfully connected things, and yet Rodgers can powerfully rotate one while the other does something totally unrelated, like run away from huge men that want to hurt him.  Now add on top that not only can he generate immense power this way, but he can also do so and still throw the ball with incredible precision!

Or rather, he could.  Because that second part, the precision part, has been missing for quite some time now.  It's been hidden by a shortening of his average depth of target and a generational talent at WR1.  A few quick facts before we continue:

• From 2008 to 2014, Rodgers had a Yards Per Attempt (YPA) of < 8.0 twice: 2008 (7.5) and 2012 (7.8).  From 2015 to 2022, Rodgers has had a YPA of > 8.0 only once, in 2020 (8.2).  But that's misleading, because
• Rodgers had a career best completion % of 70.7 in 2020.  YPA and completion % are correlated stats.  YPA is your yards across all attempts, so the more throws you complete, the smaller the number of throws that have a Yardage value of 0, meaning for a given set of throws a higher completion % will have a higher YPA than a lower completion %.  So while Rodgers had a YPA of 8.2 in 2020, he had to complete nearly 71% of his passes to get there.  His Yards Per Completion (YPC) in 2020 was 11.6, which is tied dead even with 2012 for his worst year by YPC from 2008 - 2014.  In fact,
• Rodgers has not had a YPC > 12.0 since 2014.  His 11.3 YPC in his 2021 MVP season was the fourth lowest of his career, and a full 2.3 yards less than his historic 2011 season.  But in my rush to get here, I skipped over one other thing with completion %. From 2008 to 2014, Rodgers had a completion % of < 65.0 twice: 2008 (63.6) and 2009 (64.7).  From 2015 to 2022, Rodgers has had a completion % < 65.0 five times: 2015 (60.7), 2017 (64.7), 2018 (62.3), 2019 (62) and 2022 (64.7).
• Final note, since 2018 (the first year PFR started tracking air yards), Rodgers has seen his Air Yards per Completion (the distance the ball travels before it's caught) decline every single year.  6.2 -> 5.6 -> 5.5 -> 5.3 -> 4.7.  If you're thinking maybe it's just his receivers aren't as good at catching them, his Intended Air Yards per attempt (the distance the ball travels to the receiver whether caught or not) has also declined every single year since 2018 (8.8 -> 8.8 -> 7.9 -> 7.7 -> 7.5).

So now we're back, and we have the numbers to back up the point made above, so let's talk about it quick before I wrap this up.  Rodgers routinely misses easy to moderate difficulty throws, and has for years now.  He's made up for it in the public consciousness by also making many very difficult throws, but if you watch him just a bit closer than SportsCenter highlights it's hard to ignore how erratic he's become with his ball placement.  There's lots of potential causes for this and it's almost certainly an amalgamation of several issues, but my personal bet is on the limitations of his magical throwing motion from paragraph one of this novel.  A key element of any kind of physical practice is that big muscles are much more reliable and consistent than small ones, especially when it comes to doing things in an elevated state.  Easy mental image: think of a character in a horror movie having no trouble running to their car/door, but having just the damnedest time getting their keys out and into the lock.  Fine motor control is one of the first things to go when adrenaline hits, but it's also one of the first things that age takes away from you, and Aaron is getting old.  Getting old and having built reliance on a throwing motion predicated on nearly supernatural control of the relatively small muscle groups of his arm, shoulder, and back.  These things do not a good combo make.

So while the raw strength of his arm isn't in significant decline, what is in significant decline is the consistency of his throwing motion, and the knock-on effects of that are pretty self-evident; it looks like a 4x MVP who can't reliably hit his RB in the flat from a clean pocket.

Edited November 8, 2022 by MrBobGray

[StatKing]

6 hours ago, Packer_ESP said:

Rodgers just threw in one game as many interceptions as Love has in his career.

Rodgers just had a lower passer rating than Love has ever had in his career.

Tell me again how Jordan Love is "much worse" than this last game. Let me guess, it's the "eye test"?

Never said Rodgers was good. Its hard to throw interceptions when you never see the field. Unless Rodgers throws 3 picks every game from here on out theres no chance Love plays, so don't get your hopes up.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Only if we subbed him in when we got to the red zone.

In 2008, Rodgers went 6-10 his first year as a starter with a better offensive roster than this team has.

If Love plays now, he will struggle no matter how good he is, and the fan base will continue to be pissed off and ***** about him too.

Love coming in to run a team in disarray and making things better seems extremely unlikely.

Why will Love continue to struggle?

[PACKRULE]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:48 PM, Outpost31 said:

2005 was a fun year because Nick Collins flashed a lot and Samkon Gado.

It was also fun because Favre went, “**** it, we have no talent but we’re going to have fun.”

Rodgers is going, “**** it, we have no talent I’m going to whine all game.”

Favre to Taco Wallace was beautiful in a very ugly way. Samkon, that team was so beat up and bad. From 04 to 05 was amazing. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Why will Love continue to struggle?

Because the talent is not there.  They are playing with college level talent at wide receiver that needs time to develop, and an offensive line that hasn’t been able to get a consistent line up.

I get the frustration,  but you are a better poster than this.

[PACKRULE]

30 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

There's a couple issues with Rodgers IMO, but I do truly believe that one of the biggest for years now is that the arm isn't there, at least in the way it was for much of his career.  If I have time I'll try and actually do a bigger post on this, but the gist is that Rodgers has always had a really odd throwing methodology, and age + wear and tear have slowly eroded his ability to use it.  Throwing a football, in terms of physics, is just basic force transfer; generate force in your body, transfer it to the ball and let go.  The more force you generate with your body, the further and faster you can throw the ball.  The basic fundamental throwing motion is to generate the power through your legs and hips to start, creating explosive rotation that is synced up with the cocking and releasing of the football.  The less power you generate with your lower body, the more you have to make up for it with your upper body rotation and acceleration of the arm through the motion.  Rodgers for years has been an absolute magician in his ability to generate immense rotational torque from a relatively static position without using his legs, and I cannot stress enough how crazy that is.  Completely disconnecting the motion of your upper body from your lower body is hard enough without it being a explosive rotational movement.  I mean, think about that: your upper and lower body are awfully connected things, and yet Rodgers can powerfully rotate one while the other does something totally unrelated, like run away from huge men that want to hurt him.  Now add on top that not only can he generate immense power this way, but he can also do so and still throw the ball with incredible precision!

Or rather, he could.  Because that second part, the precision part, has been missing for quite some time now.  It's been hidden by a shortening of his average depth of target and a generational talent at WR1.  A few quick facts before we continue:

• From 2008 to 2014, Rodgers had a Yards Per Attempt (YPA) of < 8.0 twice: 2008 (7.5) and 2012 (7.8).  From 2015 to 2022, Rodgers has had a YPA of > 8.0 only once, in 2020 (8.2).  But that's misleading, because
• Rodgers had a career best completion % of 70.7 in 2020.  YPA and completion % are correlated stats.  YPA is your yards across all attempts, so the more throws you complete, the smaller the number of throws that have a Yardage value of 0, meaning for a given set of throws a higher completion % will have a higher YPA than a lower completion %.  So while Rodgers had a YPA of 8.2 in 2020, he had to complete nearly 71% of his passes to get there.  His Yards Per Completion (YPC) in 2020 was 11.6, which is tied dead even with 2012 for his worst year by YPC from 2008 - 2014.  In fact,
• Rodgers has not had a YPC > 12.0 since 2014.  His 11.3 YPC in his 2021 MVP season was the fourth lowest of his career, and a full 2.3 yards less than his historic 2011 season.  But in my rush to get here, I skipped over one other thing with completion %. From 2008 to 2014, Rodgers had a completion % of < 65.0 twice: 2008 (63.6) and 2009 (64.7).  From 2015 to 2022, Rodgers has had a completion % < 65.0 five times: 2015 (60.7), 2017 (64.7), 2018 (62.3), 2019 (62) and 2022 (64.7).
• Final note, since 2018 (the first year PFR started tracking air yards), Rodgers has seen his Air Yards per Completion (the distance the ball travels before it's caught) decline every single year.  6.2 -> 5.6 -> 5.5 -> 5.3 -> 4.7.  If you're thinking maybe it's just his receivers aren't as good at catching them, his Intended Air Yards per attempt (the distance the ball travels to the receiver whether caught or not) has also declined every single year since 2018 (8.8 -> 8.8 -> 7.9 -> 7.7 -> 7.5).

So now we're back, and we have the numbers to back up the point made above, so let's talk about it quick before I wrap this up.  Rodgers routinely misses easy to moderate difficulty throws, and has for years now.  He's made up for it in the public consciousness by also making many very difficult throws, but if you watch him just a bit closer than SportsCenter highlights it's hard to ignore how erratic he's become with his ball placement.  There's lots of potential causes for this and it's almost certainly an amalgamation of several issues, but my personal bet is on the limitations of his magical throwing motion from paragraph one of this novel.  A key element of any kind of physical practice is that big muscles are much more reliable and consistent than small ones, especially when it comes to doing things in an elevated state.  Easy mental image: think of a character in a horror movie having no trouble running to their car/door, but having just the damnedest time getting their keys out and into the lock.  Fine motor control is one of the first things to go when adrenaline hits, but it's also one of the first things that age takes away from you, and Aaron is getting old.  Getting old and having built reliance on a throwing motion predicated on nearly supernatural control of the relatively small muscle groups of his arm, shoulder, and back.  These things do not a good combo make.

So while the raw strength of his arm isn't in significant decline, what is in significant decline is the consistency of his throwing motion, and the knock-on effects of that are pretty self-evident; it looks like a 4x MVP who can't reliably hit his RB in the flat from a clean pocket.

If he wasn't such an arrogant know it all a coach could get him into his mechanics to get better, but nope......AR's the man.

[AlexGreen#20]

16 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Because the talent is not there.  They are playing with college level talent at wide receiver that needs time to develop, and an offensive line that hasn’t been able to get a consistent line up.

I get the frustration,  but you are a better poster than this.

I strongly disagree that Love lacks talent. 

It's very possible he never translates that talent into production, but there is talent. 

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I strongly disagree that Love lacks talent. 

It's very possible he never translates that talent into production, but there is talent. 

He's talking about the talent at WR, OL and TE.