The 2023 Offseason Thread

[Scalamania]

7 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

They started two rookies. Both were first rounders. What an absolute shocker lol. I am not saying players coming out aren't ready to contribute year one. I am highlighting this idea that you draft rookies to produce in year one as being wrong. You aren't getting stud rookies very often. You can get competent starters in round one who can develop into more. Relying on rookies to start year one a lot of the time means you are going to have holes in your football team.

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong which is possible but I'm pretty sure they started 4 (I don't believe GK started) - IP, McDuffie, Chenal and Watson. 

I agree with you that people writing our draft off already is premature - however, I think the thought that rookies aren't brought in to produce year one is extremely outdated. You see more rookies starting and playing meaningful snaps now more so then ever. 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

1 minute ago, Scalamania said:

Maybe I'm wrong which is possible but I'm pretty sure they started 4 (I don't believe GK started) - IP, McDuffie, Chenal and Watson. 

I agree with you that people writing our draft off already is premature - however, I think the thought that rookies aren't brought in to produce year one is extremely outdated. You see more rookies starting and playing meaningful snaps now more so then ever. 

I didn't realize Watson started cause he is their NCB. Played 41% of the snaps on defense which is a lot. Chenal played 24% and didn't start.

And bringing in rookies to start year one is still just bad team building. If you pick good players and they compete and win jobs sure, start them. Picking rookies specifically to start them year one is a completely different thing. The draft is there to shape your team for the next 4-5 years. Forcing starters in the draft is how you end up with picking Jalen Reagors and JJAW's, not the other way around. Picking guys you think fit what you need in the immediate future will almost always result in misses.

[UndyTaker]

Whether you believe Jordan Davis is going to have a better 2nd year or not, he should not be handed the starting job during the offseason with no competition. If Hargrave is gone we need to invest big in either FA or early in the draft to find a replacement. Theres no way we can feel comfortable going into next season knowing Jordan Davis is going to be the starter because he has shown us that he is indeed a project DT and clearly his first year in the NFL was a wake up call for him.

I think the point @downundermike and some of us are making is that while other teams are drafting early in the draft for day 1 starters, we have been drafting project players, and I get to a point it makes sense depending on the situation, but its starting to become a trend with this team. We are not getting day 1 production out of players who are cheaper but also who are supposed to be more talented than their counterparts. 

[Scalamania]

2 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

I didn't realize Watson started cause he is their NCB. Played 41% of the snaps on defense which is a lot. Chenal played 24% and didn't start.

I thought Chenal started but it's hard to find information on the depth chart, my bad if so. 

2 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

And bringing in rookies to start year one is still just bad team building. If you pick good players and they compete and win jobs sure, start them. Picking rookies specifically to start them year one is a completely different thing. The draft is there to shape your team for the next 4-5 years. Forcing starters in the draft is how you end up with picking Jalen Reagors and JJAW's, not the other way around. Picking guys you think fit what you need in the immediate future will almost always result in misses.

I think we're close to the same page but I think you're taking the absolute whiffs that Howie has made and saying they were "forced starters" - regardless of what you think about Jalen Reagor (and my opinion is well-known here and I'd prefer to not re-visit that) he was an absolute whiff given the abundance of talent taken after him.

I think the mentality of drafting players for the future is a thing of the past - I think we've seen plenty of teams from this past draft who have drafted immediate impact players through all 7 rounds. We continue to not do so and I think that's the part that is frustrating (to me at least). 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

Just now, UndyTaker said:

I think the point @downundermike and some of us are making is that while other teams are drafting early in the draft for day 1 starters, we have been drafting project players, and I get to a point it makes sense depending on the situation, but its starting to become a trend with this team. We are not getting day 1 production out of players who are cheaper but also who are supposed to be more talented than their counterparts. 

You see the issue with everything you just said is I can just point to the 2021 draft and say you are just wrong. 

But ya we can just point to our draft last year, say they didn't play enough and claim they are all just project players. Reality is only one of them was drafted as a "project" though and the other players lack of production was mostly just due to them having better players in front of them. It's funny to me that we win 14 games and lose an insanely close SB with what was pretty unanimously agreed upon as the best roster in football and we are now complaining our rookies didn't play enough while completely ignoring the reason why that was the case.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

7 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

I thought Chenal started but it's hard to find information on the depth chart, my bad if so. 

I think we're close to the same page but I think you're taking the absolute whiffs that Howie has made and saying they were "forced starters" - regardless of what you think about Jalen Reagor (and my opinion is well-known here and I'd prefer to not re-visit that) he was an absolute whiff given the abundance of talent taken after him.

I think the mentality of drafting players for the future is a thing of the past - I think we've seen plenty of teams from this past draft who have drafted immediate impact players through all 7 rounds. We continue to not do so and I think that's the part that is frustrating (to me at least). 

Reagor was drafted because we needed a fast, outside WR who could open up the field. That is why I brought him up. We drafted a player we expected to impact our roster year one instead of evaluating who the best football player was a picking them. Whiffs are whiffs, but there is definitely a trend in the guys we have missed on and it mostly comes from drafting for need.

We drafted two impact, year one starters last year and two prominent role players in 2021. At some point the idea that maybe the guys we drafted this year didn't play because the dudes ahead of them were just better has to factor into this conversation lol. Not saying they aren't going to turn out as busts.... but when your roster was as talented as the Eagles was this past year a lot of the time rookies are just going to struggle to see the field.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by AZ_Eaglesfan

[Broadway Joe]

31 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

This also happens to be a completely useless post and waste of time.

Would have wasted less time had you not taken the time to reply. 

[UndyTaker]

36 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

You see the issue with everything you just said is I can just point to the 2021 draft and say you are just wrong. 

But ya we can just point to our draft last year, say they didn't play enough and claim they are all just project players. Reality is only one of them was drafted as a "project" though and the other players lack of production was mostly just due to them having better players in front of them. It's funny to me that we win 14 games and lose an insanely close SB with what was pretty unanimously agreed upon as the best roster in football and we are now complaining our rookies didn't play enough while completely ignoring the reason why that was the case.

Its not just last years draft its been players in every draft who when they were drafted we anticipated them being starters or at least competing to start....or they were drafted with the intentions of just not playing for a full year. Jordan Davis, Cam Jurgens, Nakobe Dean, Milton Williams, Zech McPherson, Davion Tayler, K'Von Wallace, Andre Dillard, Sidney Jones. Like I said its become a trend for this team to draft players either high up who you would automatically assume they would start, or players like K'Von who at the time was considered to compete for the starting job. Milton was obviously a project player who seems to be turning out well. Landon was drafted to sit just like Jurgens did and started due to injury. We draft project players to either sit, or project players who bust. Its our trend.

Even Jalen Hurts. Took a high pick for that player to sit. We had no intentions to have him start during Carson's time here. Just to run a few plays off the bench.

Edited February 22, 2023 by UndyTaker

[Scalamania]

Just now, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Reagor was literally drafted because we needed a fast, outside WR who could open up the field

Jalen Reagor was neither of those things which is why it's a whiff - but that's a conversation for a different day. 

 

6 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

At some point the idea that maybe the guys we drafted this year didn't play because the dudes ahead of them were just better has to factor into this conversation lol. Not saying they aren't going to turn out as busts.... but when your roster was as talented as the Eagles was this past year a lot of the time rookies are just going to struggle to see the field.

I don't disagree which is why I said Davis deserves a second year to try to establish himself. It'll be a fun topic to revisit next off-season. I was very high on Davis so I hope he can prove me wrong. 

[Kiltman]

You’re either good at roster building or you have to roll the dice on a rookie. Having to pay your QB or when your are rebuilding makes the latter more and more forced upon you.

Which was the case with both the Chiefs and Seahawks last year. 
 

I’m in the camp too that wants some more guys like that, it’s nice to not have to take the lower end risk of trading for a vet or sign someone on a one year deal that fits the system.

Looking at the board you either take McDuffie early, probably don’t sign Bradberry then. Or take Hamilton and not trade for CGJ (maybe you still do). You flip to this draft and the way it played out probably ends up as the right way to go. Corner board dropped after Sauce and DS, pure DTs this year are lower on the board rd 1.

If the point was to make the 2022 Eagles better, we needed a Punter and better 3rd receiver. Both would’ve helped out in the Super Bowl.

I think the broader argument is sound just not so much when its granular to last year…especially not roster as it stood as of the Super Bowl.

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

5 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

You’re either good at roster building or you have to roll the dice on a rookie. Having to pay your QB or when your are rebuilding makes the latter more and more forced upon you.

Which was the case with both the Chiefs and Seahawks last year. 
 

I’m in the camp too that wants some more guys like that, it’s nice to not have to take the lower end risk of trading for a vet or sign someone on a one year deal that fits the system.

Looking at the board you either take McDuffie early, probably don’t sign Bradberry then. Or take Hamilton and not trade for CGJ (maybe you still do). You flip to this draft and the way it played out probably ends up as the right way to go. Corner board dropped after Sauce and DS, pure DTs this year are lower on the board rd 1.

If the point was to make the 2022 Eagles better, we needed a Punter and better 3rd receiver. Both would’ve helped out in the Super Bowl.

I think the broader argument is sound just not so much when its granular to last year…especially not roster as it stood as of the Super Bowl.

I don't want my argument to come off as me just defending every pick Howie has ever made. I personally would have preferred Hamilton last year over Davis. I just don't think people understand their own arguments. People are pointing to the Seahawks and Chiefs. I don't think these teams went into the year thinking their rookie classes would produce the way they did. The just drafted the best players on their board and let them compete in camp. It just turned out these players were really good and probably even better than they thought. Now you can point to that and say well the Eagles need to do that!!! But that just isn't a realistic expectation. Getting multiple starter level players in the mid to late rounds is very rare and these teams just did a really good job in the draft this year.

Realistically my main point is pretty simple: Draft the best players on your board when you are picking and hope they can compete early and often.... but don't go into the draft expecting to fill holes in the draft. I would love it if all of our drafts were just like 2021 with high tier starters year one and multiple role players behind them. Reality says that is unlikely for every franchise and that counting on rookies to play tons of snaps typically means your roster is lacking in talent.

[Jeezla]

3 hours ago, Jroc04 said:

I think people wrote off Graham, right? Of course there’s more busts than booms but giving examples of busts doesn’t mean you’re not being dramatic or pre mature. People wrote off Hurts. Hell, I basically did. Kelce, Graham, Jurgens, Sweat, TJ and more all needed some time. 

Graham was written off due to microfracture surgery basically being considered a career ender, but then the surgery for it took a leap forward right around the time he got it.

[Jeezla]

1 hour ago, EagleBlueDon said:

Wonder if Robert Woods would come here to be a slot WR?

He wasn't the fastest dude prior to his injury, and looked pretty cooked when he came back.

[Daimonas]

1 hour ago, UndyTaker said:

Its not just last years draft its been players in every draft who when they were drafted we anticipated them being starters or at least competing to start....or they were drafted with the intentions of just not playing for a full year. Jordan Davis, Cam Jurgens, Nakobe Dean, Milton Williams, Zech McPherson, Davion Tayler, K'Von Wallace, Andre Dillard, Sidney Jones. Like I said its become a trend for this team to draft players either high up who you would automatically assume they would start, or players like K'Von who at the time was considered to compete for the starting job. Milton was obviously a project player who seems to be turning out well. Landon was drafted to sit just like Jurgens did and started due to injury. We draft project players to either sit, or project players who bust. Its our trend.

Even Jalen Hurts. Took a high pick for that player to sit. We had no intentions to have him start during Carson's time here. Just to run a few plays off the bench.

All these players were intended to start day 1. They got beat out by simply better players. (shockingly in the case of tj edwards, white, and mailata at the time).

 

Jurgens is an extreme outlier case because no one knew/knows when kelce will retire. 

 

Kvon we only got hyped because he went to clemson and people heard rah rah talk about him being kinda like dawk. Our hype was obviously misplaced.

 

Davion was simply just a big whiff so i agree with you there.

 

Mcpherson and williams were depth players, which is technically what you're talking about but idk how many of us expect day 1 starters after round 2. 

 

Sidney jones is basically the only person you listed that was specifically drafted to sit because he was recently injured. 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Daimonas

[Jroc04]

12 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

Graham was written off due to microfracture surgery basically being considered a career ender, but then the surgery for it took a leap forward right around the time he got it.

Regardless, by your rationale, we just dust him?