2023 Free Agency Tread

[AFF]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

It’s my theme of the off-season: If Kazee doesn’t come with him, hard no to Edmunds at anything other than minimum. 

Why?

[warfelg]

12 hours ago, AFF said:

Why?

He responded to me before that he thinks he’s below average (disagree), doesn’t complement Minkah (hard disagree), and he limits Minkahs usage (biggest disagree). 
 

Edmunds has turned himself into a really damn good box safety. Plays the run will, takes good angles, and turned into a really good pass defender. 
 

I think his games out when Minkah played with Norwood gives you enough reason to believe that Edmunds is a good fit with Minkah. But he thinks it limits Minkah to playing single high - but that’s Minkahs value! His ability to play single high and bite on plays when they go is better than “moving him around” because it’s harder to avoid him. 
 

It kinda reminds me some of the relationship between Dupree and Watt. Watt (like Minkah) is the world beater. Dupree (like Edmunds) is the underwhelming 1st rounder. And in both cases, the things the lesser guy does really help the other star. They support the run better. They apply the right pressure at the right places to push plays to the other guy. The partnership elevates the lesser guy because it allows them to take a “risk” they normally wouldn’t take. 

[warfelg]

A possible vet WR to come in and show the young guys how it’s done. 

[43M]

57 minutes ago, warfelg said:

A possible vet WR to come in and show the young guys how it’s done. 

Yes to the player.   

No to a trade.  

[warfelg]

 

[SteelersFan2333]

I’d love it, but only if it’s for a 6 or 7 and they picked up around $5M of his salary. It would give us flexibility with Dionte, provide some leadership, and from everything I’ve read he’s a hard worker 

[AFF]

16 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

I think the Steelers make a point to go after 1 of these guys…I’m gonna guess Edwards due to the Weidl connection.

[Dcash4]

14 hours ago, AFF said:

Why?

Edmunds is overwhelmingly average. I don't think you pay for that whenever you have a guy like Minkah, especially if IMO he holds him back some. They are compatible in that one is a run defender and one is a pass defender, but Kazee was far more complimentary to Minkah in the secondary as someone who can take on a coverage role and allow Minkah to be more free/useful. And not just to affect Minkah, but also how everything else can run. You have a pretty good idea of what Minkah is going to do pre-snap. Teams avoid him for that reason. I want a secondary player to him that can A) Take advantage of opportunities going away from Minkah and B) allow Minkah to be less known. 

Watch good passing teams (concept or players) play against the Steelers, they work Edmunds. That's something we didn't see a ton of later in the season. The Browns own him and finding how to get him singled in the slot against a 1 because the Steelers ONLY play Minkah single high in situations.  Three of their four passing TDs came directly with Edmunds involvement in the play (and how they know what Minkah will do). The Dolphins would have had a similar TD to Geiseki of Emunds doesn't get away with PI, and the reason is because we have roles -- and everyone knows them. We even roll into invert 2 often with Sutton coming out of the slot to get back to the deep half instead of Edmunds in passing downs. We actively avoid him in space for a better coverage player. The second Browns game is a good example on Kazee's pick by what I want. Mikah was deep, the Browns rules are "avoid and work under", but instead of Edmunds, Bush, Maulet they got Kazee who jumped the route. 

Minkah has no big pelts on the wall in terms of interceptions other than Joe Burrow (post appendectomy and in a 41-10 loss). By no means is this meant as a knock of Fitz, but it tells you what good teams and good QBs do.....don't test Minkah. This absolutely, 100% has tremendous value, but it also relies on everyone else and NOT your super star in a game built around passing (and more increasingly, turnovers). If I can make it so that teams can't actively plan to negate him as much as they do, I want that. 

Since Minkah has been here as his partner, Edmunds has 4 turnovers. FOUR. It's incredibly hard to play behind Watt/Heyward and next to Minkah and have 4. His "box safety" ability is wonderful, but a guy like Vonn Bell as a box safety has 9 turnover worthy plays in three years next to Bates (INT, FF, FR) and they play and similar role to Minkah/Edmunds. Kazee had 2 INTs in 9 games here. Tre Norwood and Arthur Maulet have as many turnover worthy plays combined in the last 2 years as Edmunds has in 4. I'm not someone who relies on turnovers, as fickle as they are, to tell the whole story....but his lack tells some sort of a story. And my story for him is that he has a high floor, but a low ceiling. He is a ranch in a neighborhood of mansions. And that's great to have....but I am not paying the increased cost for where the lot is located.

Moral of the story: What he does is replaceable. We should do either of those things before paying Edmunds as a second tier $5M-$7M player. When he was on a rookie deal or taking $3M per, there's no reason to replace him. But once you start upping the ante of the cost, IMO change your strategy. 

If we want to spend money -- Spend a little more and get Adrian Amos.

If we want Edmunds back -- bring back Kazee and have them combine for that better player

[Ward4HOF]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

If we want Edmunds back -- bring back Kazee and have them combine for that better player

The problem with that is, from what I've seen over the past couple of days, is that Kazee is likely to command decent value during FA, regardless of his DUI Suspension, and injury issues last season.  If so, we can't expect to pay both starter money, yet have only one starter.  I worry that the Steelers are favoring Kazee over Edmunds, even though Edmunds has been steady, and seems to fit well with Minkah, what we want to do on defense.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Ward4HOF

[warfelg]

 

Also Derek Carr to the Saints.

[warfelg]

 

 Well this has a chance to really chase things up.

[AFF]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Edmunds is overwhelmingly average. I don't think you pay for that whenever you have a guy like Minkah, especially if IMO he holds him back some. They are compatible in that one is a run defender and one is a pass defender, but Kazee was far more complimentary to Minkah in the secondary as someone who can take on a coverage role and allow Minkah to be more free/useful. And not just to affect Minkah, but also how everything else can run. You have a pretty good idea of what Minkah is going to do pre-snap. Teams avoid him for that reason. I want a secondary player to him that can A) Take advantage of opportunities going away from Minkah and B) allow Minkah to be less known. 

Watch good passing teams (concept or players) play against the Steelers, they work Edmunds. That's something we didn't see a ton of later in the season. The Browns own him and finding how to get him singled in the slot against a 1 because the Steelers ONLY play Minkah single high in situations.  Three of their four passing TDs came directly with Edmunds involvement in the play (and how they know what Minkah will do). The Dolphins would have had a similar TD to Geiseki of Emunds doesn't get away with PI, and the reason is because we have roles -- and everyone knows them. We even roll into invert 2 often with Sutton coming out of the slot to get back to the deep half instead of Edmunds in passing downs. We actively avoid him in space for a better coverage player. The second Browns game is a good example on Kazee's pick by what I want. Mikah was deep, the Browns rules are "avoid and work under", but instead of Edmunds, Bush, Maulet they got Kazee who jumped the route. 

Minkah has no big pelts on the wall in terms of interceptions other than Joe Burrow (post appendectomy and in a 41-10 loss). By no means is this meant as a knock of Fitz, but it tells you what good teams and good QBs do.....don't test Minkah. This absolutely, 100% has tremendous value, but it also relies on everyone else and NOT your super star in a game built around passing (and more increasingly, turnovers). If I can make it so that teams can't actively plan to negate him as much as they do, I want that. 

Since Minkah has been here as his partner, Edmunds has 4 turnovers. FOUR. It's incredibly hard to play behind Watt/Heyward and next to Minkah and have 4. His "box safety" ability is wonderful, but a guy like Vonn Bell as a box safety has 9 turnover worthy plays in three years next to Bates (INT, FF, FR) and they play and similar role to Minkah/Edmunds. Kazee had 2 INTs in 9 games here. Tre Norwood and Arthur Maulet have as many turnover worthy plays combined in the last 2 years as Edmunds has in 4. I'm not someone who relies on turnovers, as fickle as they are, to tell the whole story....but his lack tells some sort of a story. And my story for him is that he has a high floor, but a low ceiling. He is a ranch in a neighborhood of mansions. And that's great to have....but I am not paying the increased cost for where the lot is located.

Moral of the story: What he does is replaceable. We should do either of those things before paying Edmunds as a second tier $5M-$7M player. When he was on a rookie deal or taking $3M per, there's no reason to replace him. But once you start upping the ante of the cost, IMO change your strategy. 

If we want to spend money -- Spend a little more and get Adrian Amos.

If we want Edmunds back -- bring back Kazee and have them combine for that better player

Oh I can agree with the higher floor, lower ceiling aspect.

I think he’s average to slightly above average…I think he played last year on a 1 year minimum deal($1.5 I think).

I truthfully want both back .

[AFF]

7 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

 Well this has a chance to really chase things up.

It won’t be popular with most fans but it’s the right move…he’s 29 and goin into last of deal.

If some team wants to give up a 2nd, I’d say do it.

Chiefs would be a sneaky possibility even with Paecheco doing ok.

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, AFF said:

It won’t be popular with most fans but it’s the right move…he’s 29 and goin into last of deal.

If some team wants to give up a 2nd, I’d say do it.

Chiefs would be a sneaky possibility even with Paecheco doing ok.

Bills should be a sneaky spot for him as well.  I think they would send him NFC though.  I think the Eagles could be a team to watch.  Maybe the Lions. Cards would be a good team to look at.

[Dcash4]

45 minutes ago, AFF said:

Oh I can agree with the higher floor, lower ceiling aspect.

I think he’s average to slightly above average…I think he played last year on a 1 year minimum deal($1.5 I think).

I truthfully want both back .

And I don't want it to be confused, I would absolutely celebrate getting him back at the right price. I'd be pretty happy with him at a $3M value, but once we start creeping further up that price tag I just start asking "couldn't we just get someone better?". 

1 hour ago, Ward4HOF said:

I worry that the Steelers are favoring Kazee over Edmunds, even though Edmunds has been steady, and seems to fit well with Minkah, what we want to do on defense.

Personally, if I had to choose I would take Kazee. I like Edmunds overall game but I value playing the pass more than his averageness across the board. 

Edmunds is the ultimate "what if we just..." player. What if we just had better ILB play? What if we just had a better coverage S next to Minkah? What if we just had someone who could create a turnover? While he helps checkboxes, I just don't think they are boxes that can't be checked by an average replacement. 

Seeing how they were ready to let him walk last year, I am not sure the Steelers share the view that they need him...which is right where I am.