Epyon Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 9 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: Blake Bortles threw for 4400 yards and 35 TDs in his 2nd year. That didn’t make him good. That's exactly the point. Mitch was a TERRIBLE quarterback.... and he's still better than Fields across every statistical metric. We're arguing over the 22nd ranked QB this year as a franchise guy..... A few years ago we where LAUGHING at the Vikings for signing Kirk Cousins, because they where NEVER going to win a ring with him.... Fields would need a ladder, climbing spikes, and a damn jetpack to get up to Kirk's level. The kid has some elite level highlights, but his overall body of work is laughably bad. We laughed at Daniel Jones getting a contract.... Also statistically better than Fields (and up until this year, DRAMATICALLY better) 7 hours ago, G08 said: If you think Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields are in the same stratosphere as a QB, I have a bridge to sell you... At this point I think Mitch was better than Fields is.,... and the stats back that up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fbears-offense-fields-since-returning-from-injury-v0-fktkt7l3t8ac1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D726e93975d3a11eea9667a17ea462f2f9608eef2 EDIT: "Since week 11: Bears: -EPA/Play: -0.052 (20th) -Success rate: 40.5% (24th) -Yards per play: 4.8 (24th) -TD drive rate: 18.1% (20th) Fields specifically: -6.3 Y/A: (T-31st, min. 50 attempts) -75.6% adjusted completion rate (18th) -5TDs, 3 INTs -Leads league in rushing. Edited January 3 by Epyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Epyon said: That's exactly the point. Mitch was a TERRIBLE quarterback.... and he's still better than Fields across every statistical metric. We're arguing over the 22nd ranked QB this year as a franchise guy..... A few years ago we where LAUGHING at the Vikings for signing Kirk Cousins, because they where NEVER going to win a ring with him.... Fields would need a ladder, climbing spikes, and a damn jetpack to get up to Kirk's level. The kid has some elite level highlights, but his overall body of work is laughably bad. We laughed at Daniel Jones getting a contract.... Also statistically better than Fields (and up until this year, DRAMATICALLY better) At this point I think Mitch was better than Fields is.,... and the stats back that up. That is why die hard supporters say you can't go by stats with Fields or the stats are cherry picked. I think that is largely arguing off emotion rather than logic. Stats never tell whole story, but they tell part of it. I hold out hope that Fields can be better because of his immense talent, but I don't argue that he has been a great player for this season. He is largely at fault for complete stinkers and 2nd half or 4th quarter collapses that would have seen this team in playoffs. When I support him I am arguing off future potential. If he stays it will be on that basis he has my support. He needs to fix parts of his game. He has had great moments, but on balance the objective evidence says he has been disappointing. I would argue he was actually better in his big scoring stretch during tank year on a terrible team. He was a better runner last year. He was faster. Edited January 3 by dll2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Epyon said: At this point I think Mitch was better than Fields is.,... and the stats back that up. Yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, dll2000 said: He is largely at fault for complete stinkers and 2nd half or 4th quarter collapses that would have seen this team in playoffs. Hold up - you’re putting defensive collapses in the 4Q of three separate games on Fields? Jesus Christ, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 39 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said: Hold up - you’re putting defensive collapses in the 4Q of three separate games on Fields? Jesus Christ, man. Defense is definitely the biggest fault, the only one I can really throw much fault at Fields and the offense is vs CLE - where they only scored 10 points of the 17. The offense was pretty piss poor that game. DET the passing wasn't great but the running game was dominant and vs DEN Fields was blatantly stellar. Edit: I know its dated and flawed, and open to a plethora of factors that would be outliers against it... but in my head if you score 28 points there is zero reason to lose so it is fully on the defense. If you don't let the opposing offense score 20 points and you lose then it is on the offense. The 21-27 ranges there can be more movement on who is at blame but likely a combination of blame to hand out. Edited January 4 by Sugashane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Defense is leading league in turnovers or close to since Sweat. They are playing like a top 5 unit. I don't know what more you want from them. If they fail on a few drives. NFL teams are going to score given enough chances. I definitely fault Fields and offense more for losses since that time. I don't know how that makes me crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 13 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: Hold up - you’re putting defensive collapses in the 4Q of three separate games on Fields? Jesus Christ, man. Im all for keeping Fields at this point (the value of a trade is higher, and these Draft QBs are going to be relatively the same level prospects as we will see in '25 and '26) BUT I believe all three of those games would have been put away with just another first doen or two, not even another score out of the offense. Most of the issues there were due to bad play calling (jet sweeps) or some lazy efforts (Mooney), but if you can end the game before forcing your Defense to go out there and make yet another stop, by just moving the ball, thats not some monumental ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 8 minutes ago, dll2000 said: Defense is leading league in turnovers or close to since Sweat. They are playing like a top 5 unit. I don't know what more you want from them. If they fail on a few drives. NFL teams are going to score given enough chances. I definitely fault Fields and offense more for losses since that time. I don't know how that makes me crazy. Because he's not on the field for the late defensive collapses? It's not hard... That being said, Fields and the offense certainly need to do a better job closing out games. Tyler Scott blew that opportunity in Denver, refs screwed us in Cleveland, etc etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said: Im all for keeping Fields at this point (the value of a trade is higher, and these Draft QBs are going to be relatively the same level prospects as we will see in '25 and '26) BUT I believe all three of those games would have been put away with just another first doen or two, not even another score out of the offense. Most of the issues there were due to bad play calling (jet sweeps) or some lazy efforts (Mooney), but if you can end the game before forcing your Defense to go out there and make yet another stop, by just moving the ball, thats not some monumental ask Disagree with this part. Which QB in the 2025 class is an equal or better prospect to Caleb? The answer is none. His type of talent doesn't come around very often. My concern with Caleb is more with the mental and off field side of things. Is he mentally tough enough to survive as a QB in the NFL and especially the Chicago market? Do his teammates/peers gravitate towards him? Is he a good leader? The pressure on him coming into the Bears situation if they move in from A very popular player like Fields would be immense. Can he handle the pressure and expectations that would come from that? That IMO is of way more importance in this whole evaluation than the on the field attributes and performance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, G08 said: Because he's not on the field for the late defensive collapses? It's not hard... I feel so crazy being against both sides of this conversation, but blaming the defenses, and calling them "collapses" is just trying to cover/make excuses for Fields/Getsy/The Offense Go back and look at how many of those "collapses" are preceded by a 3 & Out by this offense. Like I just said, Im not even asking them to drive the field and score a TD, or even a FG, but just MOVE the ball for a First Down or two to run out the clock, and they cant even do that most of the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 8 minutes ago, topwop1 said: His type of talent doesn't come around very often. It absolutely does, he is not some "generational talent". He is just a good QB prospect. Every draft in the past decade other than 2022 (Pickett) has had atleast one prospect on Williams level or better, most have had multiple. 2018 is the only other debatable class (although with Allen's ceiling and Baker's similarities) 2015: Jameis Winston 2016: Jared Goff, Carson Wentz 2017: Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson 2018: Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield 2019: Kyler Murray 2020: Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Tua Tagovailoa 2021: Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields 2023: C.J. Stroud, Bryce Young 2024: Drake Maye Every single one of these draft classes has someone, if not multiple guys who are as good of prospects as Caleb Williams is currently. Not the Williams who walked across the stage for his Heisman 13 months ago, who looked like he had all the potential in the world to grow into. The guy who did not take another leap in 2023, who we saw the holes in his game, and who likely showed he isnt quite the leader that he marketed himself as. And at least a handful of those guys were better prospects at the time of thje draft than Williams is. In just the last 5 drafts, I have Williams in the same tier as Maye, Stroud, Fields, Tua and Kyler. With Burrow, Herbert and Lawrence all clearly above him. It would not be a bad move to go into the future with Caleb Williams, but saying he is some form of "generational talent" or however you want to quantify it, is just fan fiction at this point. And for next year, Sanders, Ewers and Beck are all likely to slot in right around or just behind that group once they get through the draft process. And then the next year were into Malachi Nelson, Arch Manning, Dante Moore amongst others who are already getting the crazy hype levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 While I am in the camp of sticking with Fields this year doesn’t necessarily tie him to the organization more than next year, if we go that route, at what point does Fields become “Poles’ guy”? If we pass on taking a QB at 1 twice in favor of Fields, does that remove Poles from being able to argue that Fields wasn’t “his guy” if he fails? It’s a rhetorical question because it’s not one with a definitive answer, but I’ve been thinking about that for a few weeks now and go back and forth on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 For me one of the biggest issues here is the way we view Caleb the prospect compared to Fields the NFL QB... What I mean by that is this is not a question of ditching Fields for someone like Joe Burrows or Josh Allen as a proven NFL commodity...it's ditching Fields for a prospect...no doubt a very good prospect...but a prospect non the less...this idea that Caleb is so good he is going to walk in and instantly make us a great team is just a falsehood because he is still going to have the rookie growing pains that the vast majority of QB prospects before him have had...if your Poles & Flus what gives you a better chance of winning more games next season? 4th year Fields and talent around him or Caleb as a rookie with less talent around him...this might be one of the few occasions where taking a QB at #1 actually puts more pressure on a team to win now rather than give you the long leash it normally does... The you look at Caleb himself...as I said he is a very good prospect but not without his flaws...6-0" 210lbs might be more acceptable in the NFL these days than ever before but let's not pretend it's great size for a QB...he will need major coaching when it comes to playing more within structure because he will be destroyed trying to play the way he does right now in the NFL because he doesn't have the size and elite athletic upside of Fields or an Allen even a Lamar...the ball security issues are clear as well...now on the positive side his ability to make mind blowing throws is unreal and you would rather coach a guy to cut down on the spectacular rather than try the impossible and coach it into him...I don't have any questions at over over his arm talent at all... Where I do have more questions is his mentality as a leader...you flat out can not come into this locker room with how it is right now and be a primadonna...you can't stand away from your team mates in pregame warm ups...you can't throw the toys out the pram when your having a bad game or even if those around you are...you can't not speak to the media after a big loss...you are going to be playing in one of the toughest media markets in all of sport...it is very interesting that over the past few days Brian Baldinger who has known Caleb since he was 16 or 17 years old has spoken about having to have a certain mentality to play in Chicago...now he hasn't said Caleb doesn't have it...but Baldinger also pointed out that he hoped Caleb got with the right group (I 100% agree with this for just about every QB prospect to ever come out) and that he doesn't know if Caleb is wired to take the pressures of struggling early in his career...for me that is a major concern because I know how Fields is built...I know how he is viewed by the players in that locker room and I also know a huge part of this sport is that mental aspect and for all the arm talent in the world if you can't lead professionals and you can't self regulate your behaviors then you are going to struggle massively in this market trying to replace a guy who the vast majority of your team mates didn't want to be let go. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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