Do you approve of Brian Flores as DC?

[Ozzy]

4 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

DJ Wonnum is not helping himself out this season. 

True, impressive Will Anderson Jr is that high on the list, especially with only 1 sack technically.  

 

9 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

I think that's a talent problem more than a coaching problem. We did Flores no favors with poor drafting by the new FO.

But Flores is still helping some of his players flourish. The Smith/Bynum/Mettellus Safety group is great, Ivan Pace looks like a future star, and Akayleb Evans and Mekhi Blackmon can at least see the field and be decent enough. Jordan Hicks looks different this year too.

Buuuut...guys like Cine and Booth either are buried in the depth chart, or are often injured. At this point, I'm not sure either are on the team next season. Asamoah might have a chance to start at some point, but to me looks like a special teams ace more than anything.

Flores needs more to work with.

 

 

I agree, Flores does not have much to work with and Booth/Cine not even seeing the field is not exactly his fault and more to do with who drafted them at the time.  Nuts Booth cannot get into the game, especially when the likes of Evans gets hurt and Booth still does not see the field.  I agree Hicks looks awesome in this Flores system and at least they are aggressive and getting after the QB.  

 

K. Cousins
D. Hunter
M. Davenport
J. Hicks
KJ Osborn
G. Joseph
E. Cleveland
J. Bullard
DJ Wonnum
J. Lynch
K. Tonga

 

These are the free agents for the Vikings next year so some massive names and their best two DL.  Hopefully they transition away from the 3/4 D which they kind of already are based on the three safety look and how they use Metellus.  Will be interesting going forward but I am glad we have Flores and his aggression, just sucks that the corners are so bad there is only so much he can do honestly especially in terms of pressure and playing dominating defense.  Maybe he will not get any head coach offers because the team is not winning even though honestly he should be a head coach again in his league at some point.  Vikings are very lucky to have him.

 

How or why the Vikings have not brought in another CB I have no idea.

 

 

 

Curious why they do not bring up a corner from the practice squad to give them some run and see how they play.  

Joejuan Williams
C.J. Coldon, Jr.
Jaylin Williams

 

At least Blackmon has not been horrible when he is in there and is confident and aggressive enough.  Still nuts how bad Booth is, his confidence at this point must be totally gone.  In college he was a tough, aggressive and confident corner.  Maybe after that injury he is just not the same and he knows it....

[SteelKing728]

4 hours ago, Ozzy said:

True, impressive Will Anderson Jr is that high on the list, especially with only 1 sack technically.  

 

I agree, Flores does not have much to work with and Booth/Cine not even seeing the field is not exactly his fault and more to do with who drafted them at the time.  Nuts Booth cannot get into the game, especially when the likes of Evans gets hurt and Booth still does not see the field.  I agree Hicks looks awesome in this Flores system and at least they are aggressive and getting after the QB.  

 

K. Cousins
D. Hunter
M. Davenport
J. Hicks
KJ Osborn
G. Joseph
E. Cleveland
J. Bullard
DJ Wonnum
J. Lynch
K. Tonga

 

These are the free agents for the Vikings next year so some massive names and their best two DL.  Hopefully they transition away from the 3/4 D which they kind of already are based on the three safety look and how they use Metellus.  Will be interesting going forward but I am glad we have Flores and his aggression, just sucks that the corners are so bad there is only so much he can do honestly especially in terms of pressure and playing dominating defense.  Maybe he will not get any head coach offers because the team is not winning even though honestly he should be a head coach again in his league at some point.  Vikings are very lucky to have him.

 

How or why the Vikings have not brought in another CB I have no idea.

 

 

 

Curious why they do not bring up a corner from the practice squad to give them some run and see how they play.  

Joejuan Williams
C.J. Coldon, Jr.
Jaylin Williams

 

At least Blackmon has not been horrible when he is in there and is confident and aggressive enough.  Still nuts how bad Booth is, his confidence at this point must be totally gone.  In college he was a tough, aggressive and confident corner.  Maybe after that injury he is just not the same and he knows it....

I seriously doubt we'll see Booth or Cine ever do much here at this point.

It sucks because I'm optimistic about the other guys...just not them...at all.

[swede700]

13 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

I seriously doubt we'll see Booth or Cine ever do much here at this point.

It sucks because I'm optimistic about the other guys...just not them...at all.

I personally am going to reframe it...rather than how little progress they've been making, how the others have stepped up.  The reality is both of them got behind the 8-ball with injuries (Cine was already behind before that, but he also was just a rookie).  While it's disappointing that both haven't lived up to where they were drafted at this point, it doesn't really matter...they were both drafted for a different scheme with a different DC, who clearly had significant input into the selections.  It's on them at this point...I did see Booth contribute on STs...that may be where they both have to make their hay.

And @Ozzy, Joejuan isn't here anymore...he's in Chicago.

Edited October 10, 2023 by swede700

[SemperFeist]

Booth has been the disappointment so far. Evans/Murphy/Blackmon have been ok, but not so good as they should keep a player with Booth’s pedigree off the field.

Cine is still so much of an unknown because the guys in front of him, Smith/Bynum, are making it almost impossible to see the field. I’m still reserving my judgement on Cine until next year when Smith is likely gone, or retired. 

[swede700]

7 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

Booth has been the disappointment so far. Evans/Murphy/Blackmon have been ok, but not so good as they should keep a player with Booth’s pedigree off the field.

Cine is still so much of an unknown because the guys in front of him, Smith/Bynum, are making it almost impossible to see the field. I’m still reserving my judgement on Cine until next year when Smith is likely gone, or retired. 

Booth has suffered from Buxton syndrome since high school.

[Cearbhall]

I am always reserving judgement for the future until later, but it is undisputable that to this point Booth and Cine have both been huge disappointments that have nowhere near met expectations. We can put the kid gloves on all we want when talking about them, but I am not sure the point of that. Those two have been terrible, but they are a great example of why a team should never count on a draft pick to fill a hole in the starting lineup.  Draft picks are for future needs.  Immediate needs should be filled by guys that have previously played in the league. 

[SemperFeist]

47 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

but they are a great example of why a team should never count on a draft pick to fill a hole in the starting lineup.  Draft picks are for future needs.

That’s exactly what Cine and Booth were when they were drafted. 

Neither were expected to be starters when they were drafted. Cine was drafted into a safety room where Harrison Smith and Cam Bynum were the expected starters. Maybe you would have liked to see Cine push Bynum for that spot, but he wasn’t drafted to start. He was drafted as the eventual heir to Smith, and if it wasn’t for Cine’s horrific injury there’s a real possibility that Smith would not have been brought back in 2023. But the severity of Cine’s injury caused the Vikings to adjust their plan. 

Booth was drafted with a hopeful quicker path to the starting lineup, but he wasn’t drafted with the expectation of being a starter. The Vikings had their starters in place with Peterson, Dantzler, and Sullivan in the slot. That unit wasn’t all that strong, so maybe there was some hope that Booth would push for early playing time, but the veterans to play were in place. At the time of the draft, it’s likely that Booth was viewed as Peterson’s future replacement. 

[Cearbhall]

35 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

That’s exactly what Cine and Booth were when they were drafted. 

Neither were expected to be starters when they were drafted. Cine was drafted into a safety room where Harrison Smith and Cam Bynum were the expected starters. Maybe you would have liked to see Cine push Bynum for that spot, but he wasn’t drafted to start. He was drafted as the eventual heir to Smith, and if it wasn’t for Cine’s horrific injury there’s a real possibility that Smith would not have been brought back in 2023. But the severity of Cine’s injury caused the Vikings to adjust their plan. 

Booth was drafted with a hopeful quicker path to the starting lineup, but he wasn’t drafted with the expectation of being a starter. The Vikings had their starters in place with Peterson, Dantzler, and Sullivan in the slot. That unit wasn’t all that strong, so maybe there was some hope that Booth would push for early playing time, but the veterans to play were in place. At the time of the draft, it’s likely that Booth was viewed as Peterson’s future replacement. 

Yep yep!  13-3 would have never happened if the team didn't have other guys to start.  Teams ought to do it this way so an otherwise potentially great year is needlessly tanked.

I think that Flores has done a great job with the tools he has been given.  Given what he has shown, I am in favor of the team investing more in defense to see what he can do with that.

[PrplChilPill]

Teams absolutely expect first round picks to start in year 1 or 2.....this idea the draft is only about the future is ridiculous. Just look at players and when they play...

[Cearbhall]

10 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

Teams absolutely expect first round picks to start in year 1 or 2.....this idea the draft is only about the future is ridiculous. Just look at players and when they play...

That is not a good strategy IMO.  Sometimes that happens, but it isn't a good strategy. When there is an immediate need, teams often sign either a blue-chip free agent to will the need or sign a low-cost rental to hold the position while they look for a guy in the draft.  Sure, when teams draft a guy in the first round that player often supplants the low-cost rental in training camp or early in the season.  That's great.

The draft is about the future. General managers look at future needs of the team when they draft.  Yeah, there is an argument to be made that a team should simply go best player available and that implies not worrying about current or future needs but instead getting talent and rounding out the roster in other ways.

As this all applies to Flores, he has to coach the guys that the GM provides and try to develop them. In the case of Booth and Cine, I do not see coaching or the ability of the coach to develop players as the likely cause of the players inability to make a positive impact on the defense.  Flores has successfully developed and gotten more production out of other young players (Evans, Blackmon, Pace, Metellus, etc...).  At this junction, my judgement is that the players simply weren't able to make the adjustment to the NFL.  It happens.

[vikingsrule]

52 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

Teams absolutely expect first round picks to start in year 1 or 2.....this idea the draft is only about the future is ridiculous. Just look at players and when they play...

If they are half way though the rookie contract and still can’t see the field, for one reason or another, that’s a problem. Day three picks are a crap shoot but you’ve got to nail down those day one and day two picks more often than not. Still would prefer going the route of a blue chipper if you’ve got a top ten pick than dropping down for a late day one pick, trade just never made sense to me and obviously the return has been horrible give that Cine and Booth can’t crack the lineup in a part of the team where teams need depth.  

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

That is not a good strategy IMO.  Sometimes that happens, but it isn't a good strategy. When there is an immediate need, teams often sign either a blue-chip free agent to will the need or sign a low-cost rental to hold the position while they look for a guy in the draft.  Sure, when teams draft a guy in the first round that player often supplants the low-cost rental in training camp or early in the season.  That's great.

The draft is about the future. General managers look at future needs of the team when they draft.  Yeah, there is an argument to be made that a team should simply go best player available and that implies not worrying about current or future needs but instead getting talent and rounding out the roster in other ways.

As this all applies to Flores, he has to coach the guys that the GM provides and try to develop them. In the case of Booth and Cine, I do not see coaching or the ability of the coach to develop players as the likely cause of the players inability to make a positive impact on the defense.  Flores has successfully developed and gotten more production out of other young players (Evans, Blackmon, Pace, Metellus, etc...).  At this junction, my judgement is that the players simply weren't able to make the adjustment to the NFL.  It happens.

I think possibly 21 or 22 of the 32 1st round picks in the 2023 draft start.

 

Sure ideally you would already be set at every position but that is rarely the case unless you are the 49ers, Eagles or Chiefs and with free agency even the Eagles had holes and so did the Chiefs and 49ers, but there are no rookies starting currently I believe for any of those teams.  Most teams do not have loaded rosters like that and rookies will start sometimes.

 

With Booth I do feel that injury totally hurt him athletically and he is just not like he used to be and he also has lost a ton of his confidence or is so arrogant he does not even realize his career is close to over.  He should be focusing on improving, working hard and not taking anything for granted.  Not sure what his attitude is like or how he prepares when he is not playing...

 

Lewis Cine was over drafted because he played on an all time great Georgia defense and was protected by huge big athletes ahead of him, and that also made him look better than he is.  He could be a hit man and fly around making plays because that front seven was so great and has so much talent on it.  Honestly outside of a few good games against good competition his career overall was pretty disappointing start to finish at Georgia, honestly only that final year he started to standout.  He looked skinny in college and looks even more skinny when put against NFL guys.  He wants to be a hit man but physically cannot pull it off.  So then it comes down to coverage and clearly just because he ran fast does not mean he is great in coverage or has great awareness.  I am sure the Vikings thought he was this super fast safety that could cover so well and clean things up on the back end when really he did not have great ball skills in college so why would he in the NFL.  And physically he does not look the part if one wants a hit man at safety that can bring it.  

 

But yes in an ideal world rookies do not start but if you miss on a few drafts in a row and do not get quality players that is going to happen over and over again.  Also fact is next year assuming they move on from Kirk Cousins they will have a starting QB who is a rookie day one potentially.  

 

The real thing was Jay Ward, sure get Blackmon I guess but Jay Ward was an odd pick, he is another one where it is like if he is so good why not put him in the slot, but maybe he is in case Cine is no good at safety but if Ward is not good either that could be an issue down the road once Harrison Smith retires.  Passing on Tre Tomlinson seems really odd, they could have got him instead of Ward and Tomlinson could play the slot instead of Murphy and Blackmon.  Or a guy like Clark Phillips but maybe the GM and guys in charge do not like smaller DBs when in reality so what as long as they can run and tackle well with good ball awareness which both have.

 

I heard some talk of the Jets trading for Cousins which I doubt happens, but with Jefferson out 4 games at least things could get ugly real quick in terms of their record.  

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

If they are half way though the rookie contract and still can’t see the field, for one reason or another, that’s a problem. Day three picks are a crap shoot but you’ve got to nail down those day one and day two picks more often than not. Still would prefer going the route of a blue chipper if you’ve got a top ten pick than dropping down for a late day one pick, trade just never made sense to me and obviously the return has been horrible give that Cine and Booth can’t crack the lineup in a part of the team where teams need depth.  

True the trade was very odd, I still say they just did it to save a few million dollars in a less contract from the 14th pick overall and the 32 pick overall.  Cine got 4 years $11.4 mil, Kyle Hamilton 4 years $16.3 mil.

 

Still as of right now one is potentially a Pro Bowl player at his position and a super rare athlete for his position as well who can play slot, TE cover or deep coverage.  The other cannot even get on the field even with the team playing three safeties. 

 

Would have been real interesting if they got Zion Johnson, Kenyon Green or Tyler Linderbaum at that spot as well, any of those guys are better than the interior guys currently on the Vikings.  Also sucks the Bengals picked Dax Hill, curious if the Vikings would have taken Cine over Hill who is a straight baller and could even play CB if asked. 

 

[JDBrocks]

FLORES THREAD

[PrplChilPill]

10 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

FLORES THREAD

Good luck