2024 Draft Debate and Discussion

[Epyon]

7 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

The tribalism over Fields vs. Caleb needs to stop man...like I get having a strong opinion but it is possible to like both options without having to rubbish one or the other...like Fields is one of the worst 5 QBs in the league? C'mon let's not be silly now.

I agree in the spirit of "the tribalism" bit needs to go away, but I don't at all agree that there's really two options here.. I'm completely out on Fields at this point.  Now if you said Caleb vs Maye or something I'm more open to the idea, though I will say Maye absolutely terrifies me as a prospect because of the same concerns Mitch had..... Maye has way more physical talent than Mitch did, but his UNC offense is still half field, 1 read plays..... and you'd have to teach him how to read defense, from a starting point that is lower than if he knew absolutely nothing, because he has to first unlearn everything UNC taught him.

People can say what they want about the Air Raid system for being gimmicky, but at least it often has full field, multi level reads built into it

[Sugashane]

7 hours ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

Hey guys let's cool this debate down a bit here, let's talk politics! Religion?

*gasps*

May every burger you ever eat be a vegan lie.

[Bigbear72]

6 hours ago, SLCbear said:

95% of these concerns could/would be weeded out in the pre-draft process 

 Caleb Williams is not the ONLY qb in this Draft 

One training camp of splitting reps is not going to be a harmful situation for player development, esp when JF is undisputed starter lmao

 Is it IDeAL to spit reps ? NO. Will splitting reps in a Rookie's very 1st TC stunt a Rookie's development ? Of course not

Why does the lockerroom HAVE to become fractured bc there are 2 high-level QBs on same roster ? Both are UNPROVEN and JF is undisputed starter. We maintain continuity and momentum from this past season w JF, and the  Rookie is not thrown into the NFL fire. Chicago  QBs haven't exactly fared very well here  ever 

 Poles didn't shut it down, Michael Lombardi even talked some about doing this, taking it one step at a time and only making a move when absolutely necessary; letting it all play out. 

 

Well, that convinced me. We should draft Williams and keep JF1 then let them and RJ and TB all battle it out in training camp for QB1. What could possibly go wrong?

[Madmike90]

3 hours ago, Epyon said:

I agree in the spirit of "the tribalism" bit needs to go away, but I don't at all agree that there's really two options here.. I'm completely out on Fields at this point.  Now if you said Caleb vs Maye or something I'm more open to the idea, though I will say Maye absolutely terrifies me as a prospect because of the same concerns Mitch had..... Maye has way more physical talent than Mitch did, but his UNC offense is still half field, 1 read plays..... and you'd have to teach him how to read defense, from a starting point that is lower than if he knew absolutely nothing, because he has to first unlearn everything UNC taught him.

People can say what they want about the Air Raid system for being gimmicky, but at least it often has full field, multi level reads built into it

So you don't agree then hahaha...

Okay so explain to me what will elevate Williams over the other guys who have played for Riley in that scheme? What set's him apart? What is a secret sauce? Change my mind that we can't keep Fields and build around him.

[Epyon]

2 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

So you don't agree then hahaha...

Okay so explain to me what will elevate Williams over the other guys who have played for Riley in that scheme? What set's him apart? What is a secret sauce? Change my mind that we can't keep Fields and build around him.

No. I do not agree with the tribalism regarding Fields vs Williams.... I'm not 100% rabid "Caleb or riot" like the Fields fanatics seem to be. I think Williams is the best qb of this draft based upon what I can scout via tape available to me... But I wouldn't be upset if we took Maye as an instant reaction... Confused and apprehensive because Maye feels riskier to me,but I don't get to sit down with the guys and get to know them in any meaningful way, so the picture for me there isn't as definitive. I could even be talked into Daniels or Penix with their own concerns. 

Fields on the other hand, I'm 100% out on. The kid is a bust, and it's genuinely baffling to me how anyone even considers giving him another year when you have the easiest and most obvious out via the #1 pick this year. What in the world has he done in the last 3 years to convince you he's the guy? 

 

As for your question regarding Caleb:

His arm talent absolutely embarrasses the other guys who have come out of that scheme/coach for starters. His arm talent is going to be top 5 in the nfl the day he's drafted. Now to be clear that's not saying he's going to be a top 5 qb, just that his arm talent is. This is a guy who can throw 65 air yards down field from the right hash to the left numbers without setting his feet, and while on the run. It's kind of absurd. 

He also has great pocket awareness, and great ability to keep his eyes down field while being pressured (his 22 tape is much better at this than his 23 tape admittedly) 

I'd also add... I'd literally also take any of Hurts, Mayfield, or Kyler over Fields based upon what we've seen from Fields so far in his career, and I've got Caleb far above where I had any of them coming out. 

Beyond that, watching his tape, the air raid system actually has him often making full Field, 3 level reads, since that's one of the major points of the air raid system. 

He carried his team on his back this year with no weapons of note, no offensive line of note, and almost no defense at all...he elevated a weak roster, and the year he actually had a good weapon, he looked dominant, won the Heisman, and got tagged as "generational" because of it. 

He's also a guy who came into college and immediately played well in a massive rivalry game, and basically started his entire career after that. 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

7 hours ago, Sugashane said:

*gasps*

May every burger you ever eat be a vegan lie.

OK fine...  What marque of automobile does Calvin piss on in your household? Mildly less divisive. 

[refundmytickets]

I like that Williams went through some adversity in 23. He has some bad plays on tape. You know exactly what to work on.

The adversity he goes through in the NFL won't be completely new to him. He's used to having guys in his face, being hit, having to carry a subpar team, etc.

[dll2000]

 

[G08]

15 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

My question was simply what separates Caleb from the likes of Murray or Mayfield?

Valid question and I'm still very early in my "tape study" of Caleb, but what I can say about him is the following:

• Excellent mechanics, starting with his footwork and his base
• This enables him to throw from various arm slots and platforms
• He has an incredible ability to fade away from the pocket yet still throw with anticipation, velocity and accuracy
• He has the ability to throw WRs open / guide them into open space, which is paramount in today's NFL
• Top tier arm strength, one scout said he has a stronger arm than Patrick Mahomes (not sure I agree), but I saw the kid throw it 65 yards without over-exertion
• His ability to play from the pocket and, what left me shaking my head more than once, is his ability to navigate pressure, made defenders miss, and then pedal/shift back INTO the pocket while looking downfield. It's incredible
• He isn't as strong as Justin Fields (not many QBs are) but he does fight to break sacks and isn't shy of stiff-arming a defender coming at him (I can be a bit of a football meatball so I like that kind of fire in my QB)
• He is a threat to tuck the ball (or hold it out like a loaf of bread in this case) and run on you so defenses have to respect that ability as well as the RPO game

He's ******* talented. I'm of the opinion he's a more polished QB than Justin Fields at this point, the biggest question for me (and one I won't ever be able to answer) boils down to his character/attitude/persona/leadership traits. Can he handle adversity and criticism? Can he take to tough coaching? How will he handle the Chicago media jumping down his throat every chance they get? The way he carries himself is only going to put more eyes on him and, if/when things aren't going well, will add even more scrutiny to him.

[StLunatic88]

8 hours ago, Epyon said:

I will say Maye absolutely terrifies me as a prospect because of the same concerns Mitch had..... Maye has way more physical talent than Mitch did, but his UNC offense is still half field

You say this alot about Maye, but for some reason arent concerned about Riley's system and the simplicity of it

1 hour ago, Epyon said:

Beyond that, watching his tape, the air raid system actually has him often making full Field, 3 level reads, since that's one of the major points of the air raid system. 

This is not true of Lincoln Riley's system. The real Air Raid? Mike Leech's Air Raid? Sure, thats what it is meant to do, its what Patrick Mahomes did in college, which makes him so special, because most QBs that run through that system, dont have the physical gifts AND the ability to read like that.

Lincoln Riley's spin off is a much more simplified version. Its more often than not like 1/1.5 reads and if its not there, then just go make a play. Its exactly WHY his QBs have been so dynamic in college, because they can each out athlete the defenses and win at backyard football. That isnt a sustainable model in the NFL, especially when you arent built like a Mack Truck (Cam Newton) and even sometimes when you are (Anthony Richardson)

There is also a reason no one has brought that specific version of the Air Raid to the NFL, because Defenses thrive when an offense leaves its structure. Thats the massive disconnect when people try to compare Williams to Mahomes, Patrick is amazing at running the full offense as its supposed to, but when there is breakdowns/no one open he ALSO has the ability to improvise and make magic happen. Caleb has been great in College at the second part of that, but almost always defaults to bailing on the system and playing Streetball by himself. Again, that works in College when you can just out athlete most of the defense, thats not usually how it works in the NFL. I dont feel comfortable that Caleb can (or maybe more importantly will be willing to) break that habbit and just sit and wait for the offense to work for him.

[dll2000]

I haven't watched Maye at all yet, but things I like:

1) He has had at 2 good seasons, not just one.  He was good from jump.  

2) He did it at NC.

3) He is big and tall and brings athleticism with his size.  He is prototype QB and that isn't nothing.  

4) He is 21.  I think it is grossly unfair when a guy is 23 or 24+ playing college football.   Massive difference between those ages and 18 - 20 year olds in both physical and mental maturity.

 

[refundmytickets]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

Caleb has been great in College at the second part of that, but almost always defaults to bailing on the system and playing Streetball by himself.

Not sure I agree with this. From what I've seen, he plays pretty well within structure, especially when he's protected. He resorts to hero ball mostly when the defense puts him under a lot of pressure.

I don't think Murray or Mayfield failed because they over-rely on backyard football. I think they have physical limitations that limit them both on and off script. Williams doesn't have those same limitations.

[dll2000]

Just now, dll2000 said:

I haven't watched Maye at all yet, but things I like:

1) He has had at 2 good seasons, not just one.  He was good from jump.  

2) He did it at NC.

3) He is big and tall and brings athleticism with his size.  He is prototype QB and that isn't nothing.  

4) He is 21.  I think it is grossly unfair when a guy is 23 or 24+ playing college football.   Massive difference between those ages and 18 - 20 year olds in both physical and mental maturity.

 

I have always thought there was market room for an NFL farm league post college that was age restricted.  

21+ to 24.  

Since college football is moving in direction of minor league as well, were I charge of all football, I would make that age restricted to 18-21.

I would put the older minor league teams in the non-power colleges and let them play in those stadiums.

You could have a draft after NFL draft for older minor league teams.  It would be fun. 

Actually each NFL team could affiliate with a minor league team and assign them 15 players or so from their roster.  This would include some of their draft picks.  Could be an early round QB if you have a vet you want to start.

The rest would drafted.

This would be waaaaayyyyyy better system for developing QBs.  You get a lot better actually practicing and playing than holding a clipboard.

Just like baseball/hockey, players could get called up or sent down.  

 

[StLunatic88]

37 minutes ago, refundmytickets said:

Not sure I agree with this. From what I've seen, he plays pretty well within structure, especially when he's protected. He resorts to hero ball mostly when the defense puts him under a lot of pressure.

Nearly every single Draftnik who talks about Caleb Williams points out one very specific thing, and its his talent to play outside of structure, but in the same breath asks the question does he rely on that too much/too quickly.

Riley's offense is quite literally set up to get quick hitters or let the QB make a play. Thats extremely fun and entertaining in college, it doesnt work for long in the NFL. 

Im not even saying that Caleb cant play in structure, thats just a question that needs to be answered. And then the follow up is, will he commit to playing that way?

[Sugashane]

9 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Nearly every single Draftnik who talks about Caleb Williams points out one very specific thing, and its his talent to play outside of structure, but in the same breath asks the question does he rely on that too much/too quickly.

Riley's offense is quite literally set up to get quick hitters or let the QB make a play. Thats extremely fun and entertaining in college, it doesnt work for long in the NFL. 

Im not even saying that Caleb cant play in structure, thats just a question that needs to be answered. And then the follow up is, will he commit to playing that way?

If I'm the Bears OC I'm showing him film of Purdy for the 2023 season (minus the BAL game... ooph).

"Are you better than he is? Because he's top 3-4 in the MVP voting this year. What does he do? I gets the ball to his playakers and rarely turns the ball over. When the play breaks down you can be the Heisman highlight reel again, but 90% of your game you're a surgeon, 10% of the time you're going off and doing what you do. Do that and you'll put up a ton of points. Put up a ton of points as the QB and you're a god in Chicago, following only Black Jesus himself."

(obviously a little heavy handed for entertainment but still   lol)