2024 OL Talk

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

See, this is just wrong.  It's not his only red flag.

Just to clear up semantics, a blue chip is, to me, a ready, elite prospect.  If you need seasoning, you're not a blue chip.

LIS, if you want to use blue chip as only the best of the best prospects, then yes I would agree he's not a blue chip prospect.  And I'd argue that there's only 2 in this year's class assuming you don't have issues with Caleb Williams.  He and MHJ are the only true blue chip prospects in this year's draft. Joe Alt is close as is Malik Nabers, but Fashanu is a top 10 prospect easily.  The upside is tremendous.  Even his floor looks like something of a later in his year's Chad Clifton without the injury concerns.

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Fashanu has had some fairly rough games over the last two years.  The primary examples being Ohio State over the last two years.  He had rough games both times against Tuimoloau, and in 22 against Zach Harrison and JT again.  He struggles making and sustaining blocks sometimes, misses blocks, makes mental mistakes, and gets beaten by power more than you want to see from a "top level" prospect.  Spin moves and bull rushes seemed to give him the most trouble in the tape I watched (the full games I watched of his and made notes for this season were Ohio State, Michigan, and Illinois).  When you show problems with your hand usage and then show up with small hands, that's not so much that the flag is the hands, the flag is oh hey, he struggles with this one thing on tape, and small hands sure seem like something that would cause it, and he has small hands.

If Alt doesn't fall to the Titans, Fashanu is the player I want.  I want it in a trade back, but he's my second choice for the players likely to be there.  He's likely going to be a good player.  But he has some problems, and those problems will be worse in the NFL.  That doesn't make him a bad prospect, it just makes him not a blue chip.

He had similar issues in 22.  And that's not the profile of a blue chip player.

As I mentioned, power is the part of his game that's underdeveloped.  But you look at the knocks that David Bakhtiari had coming out of college, and it's pretty much identical.  I don't think Bakhtiari was as developed as a pass protector as Fashanu coming out.  But they're in the same vein.  They're guys that you're going to have on the blindside for the next decade, and you're never once going to be thinking about that position.

And you mention it being a "bad" game against Ohio State, I thought it was probably one of his better games.  In 2022, he limited Zach Harrison to 0 TFL and 0 sacks.  In the 2023 game, J.T. Tuimoloau was credit with 1 sack and 1 TFL, and that 1 sack was anyone but Fashanu's fault.  There probably should have been a chip by the TE on the play where he got the sack.  And Tuimoloau is exactly the type of player that Fashanu struggles with.  Players who can turn speed into power are going to be the kryptonite to him, but that's where Fashanu's game needs to develop.  The anchor isn't there.  The power game is underdeveloped.  You compare that to say Taliese Fuaga who has the power game down pat, but in terms of pass pro needs work.  You can't teach those soft feet.

[goldfishwars]

Man, I love Graham Barton - dude is never off balance. He is Joe Thuney. 

[Tugboat]

46 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

Man, I love Graham Barton - dude is never off balance. He is Joe Thuney. 

Yeah.  He's comfortably OC1 for me, even though there's a bit of projection on making the transition inside, snapping, etc.  Just looks so easy to translate and his offseason work has looked like a real natural fit to me.

JPJ gets all the hype and he's got a lot more raw power to offer, but he doesn't play with nearly the same imperturbable balance, suddenness, and awareness of Barton.  It just looks so natural and easy to him.  JPJ will maul guys but he seems to rely a lot more on brute force to wrestle a guy back into balance...or goes overboard out of balance the other way trying to bury a guy.  Really the only thing where Barton seems to get into trouble is...when his lack of length gets a bit exposed with too much space.  Which should evaporate inside.

Only guy who comes into the conversation to unseat Barton for me as IOL1 overall is if i'm projecting Fautanu as a Guard.

[nicfre2011]

2 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Yeah.  He's comfortably OC1 for me, even though there's a bit of projection on making the transition inside, snapping, etc.  Just looks so easy to translate and his offseason work has looked like a real natural fit to me.

JPJ gets all the hype and he's got a lot more raw power to offer, but he doesn't play with nearly the same imperturbable balance, suddenness, and awareness of Barton.  It just looks so natural and easy to him.  JPJ will maul guys but he seems to rely a lot more on brute force to wrestle a guy back into balance...or goes overboard out of balance the other way trying to bury a guy.  Really the only thing where Barton seems to get into trouble is...when his lack of length gets a bit exposed with too much space.  Which should evaporate inside.

Only guy who comes into the conversation to unseat Barton for me as IOL1 overall is if i'm projecting Fautanu as a Guard.

Do you think center is likely his best position or do you see him as a Pro Bowl level guard projection? I tend to agree with goldfish....he reminds me of Thuney. For the Chiefs, I wouldn't hate it if the Chiefs added Barton considering Thuney's age + contract and the pending free agency of Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith.

[goldfishwars]

39 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

Do you think center is likely his best position or do you see him as a Pro Bowl level guard projection? I tend to agree with goldfish....he reminds me of Thuney. For the Chiefs, I wouldn't hate it if the Chiefs added Barton considering Thuney's age + contract and the pending free agency of Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith.

I think a lot of people see him at center because he played six games there on 2020. Been a left tackle since. I could see him at any spot inside tbh. 

[Tugboat]

41 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

Do you think center is likely his best position or do you see him as a Pro Bowl level guard projection? I tend to agree with goldfish....he reminds me of Thuney. For the Chiefs, I wouldn't hate it if the Chiefs added Barton considering Thuney's age + contract and the pending free agency of Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith.

I like Barton's quickness and awareness a lot as a Center.  And that ability to always play in balance is very useful at C.  That's where i'd project him for more value.  But it's easy to see him as a great Guard too.  I just think that a really good C is a bigger anchor to your line these days than a Guard...so the value is a bit more there.  But ultimately G/C value and where he fits best might even just come down to scheme.

 

I can definitely see the Thuney comp too.  I don't know that he'd hold up on the edge, but sometimes guys with the right coaching, system, and scrappy drive can hold on when absolutely necessary.  Just adds appeal to Barton it he's that potential "all positions" guy.  I just wouldn't want to have to play him there.  But C/G...and with versatility to swap between them.

[Tugboat]

12 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

I think a lot of people see him at center because he played six games there on 2020. Been a left tackle since. I could see him at any spot inside tbh. 

I think the other part of it is that in the draft process, he's looked really comfortable taking reps as a Center.  There's value in that, as most pure Guard projections can't really play C.  But Barton looks like he could easily play either.  He can do the things you need a Center to do.  He also has the traits that's he far from a "Center Only" limited sort of guy.

[nicfre2011]

16 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I like Barton's quickness and awareness a lot as a Center.  And that ability to always play in balance is very useful at C.  That's where i'd project him for more value.  But it's easy to see him as a great Guard too.  I just think that a really good C is a bigger anchor to your line these days than a Guard...so the value is a bit more there.  But ultimately G/C value and where he fits best might even just come down to scheme.

 

I can definitely see the Thuney comp too.  I don't know that he'd hold up on the edge, but sometimes guys with the right coaching, system, and scrappy drive can hold on when absolutely necessary.  Just adds appeal to Barton it he's that potential "all positions" guy.  I just wouldn't want to have to play him there.  But C/G...and with versatility to swap between them.

I agree on your take about Barton at tackle. That also seems like an apt comparison to Thuney. Thuney played left tackle at times during his college tenure but he served as an emergency left tackle for us. On a separate note, here is what Zierlein had to say about Thuney as a draft prospect....LOL.

 

By Lance Zierlein
NFL Analyst
Overview
Thuney is a three-year starter who has shown overall improvement in all aspects of his game and the position diversity that offensive line coaches love and need. Unfortunately, his lack of foot quickness and arm length make him an unlikely NFL tackle and his core strength and frame deficiencies will make a move to guard very difficult. Ultimately, center might be his only NFL shot.

[Tugboat]

15 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

I agree on your take about Barton at tackle. That also seems like an apt comparison to Thuney. Thuney played left tackle at times during his college tenure but he served as an emergency left tackle for us. On a separate note, here is what Zierlein had to say about Thuney as a draft prospect....LOL.

 

By Lance Zierlein
NFL Analyst
Overview
Thuney is a three-year starter who has shown overall improvement in all aspects of his game and the position diversity that offensive line coaches love and need. Unfortunately, his lack of foot quickness and arm length make him an unlikely NFL tackle and his core strength and frame deficiencies will make a move to guard very difficult. Ultimately, center might be his only NFL shot.

😆 😆 😆 

That reads very similar to a Barton profile.  The thing where i'd take issue is maybe the "foot quickness".  I find Barton has good quickness, it's just that because of his lack of length, he's not as rangy with with it.  Not just the reach, but physically doesn't gain the same depth or compensate back as quickly or easily in his footwork as an actual LT prospect.  That's where i don't really see him holding up on the edge.

But i don't think his real "quickness" is a problem.  He just isn't able to cover enough ground with adjustments in space.  I think his quickness is actually a plus with Barton.  He moves suddenly, reads and reacts and moves quickly and does it all perfectly in balance...he just doesn't move quite as far as you'd like from a Tackle.

 

I'd also maybe argue that his core strength is better as a prospect at least.  Never really a weakness for Thuney as a Pro...but i'd also say it's not really a major weakness for Barton.  I think it's a small part of where Center might be the better fit for Barton though.  But depends on scheme really.  He's not a guy with the mauling power to drive guys off in the run game like a "classic" Guard.  That's where it probably comes down to scheme where he's best or most valuable to a team.

 

But that's nitpicking.  The overall profile definitely aligns with a guy like Thuney.

[goldfishwars]

2 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I think the other part of it is that in the draft process, he's looked really comfortable taking reps as a Center.  There's value in that, as most pure Guard projections can't really play C.  But Barton looks like he could easily play either.  He can do the things you need a Center to do.  He also has the traits that's he far from a "Center Only" limited sort of guy.

Yeah good point. Teams are more and more willing to get their best five out there rather than worry about specific profiles for specific roles. Versatile lineman like Barton should be a coveted commodity for that reason. Really like him in Green Bay (if he gets that far) as they have been particularly good at identifying smart, flexible linemen.  

[Hunter2_1]

I’m sure 80% of tackle prospects get given the “he’s a guard at the next level” tag. Tackles must be scarce as hell in the NFL, if you judge by NFL.com or ESPN or whatever 

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I’m sure 80% of tackle prospects get given the “he’s a guard at the next level” tag. Tackles must be scarce as hell in the NFL, if you judge by NFL.com or ESPN or whatever 

I really, really don't understand that label being applied to Fuaga.

[Hunter2_1]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I really, really don't understand that label being applied to Fuaga.

Me neither. Or Fautanu. I mean he’s played 98% of snaps at LT and, upon closer inspection, his arm length is fine even though he’s “only” 6’4”. 
 

but yeah Fuaga is about as tackle as it gets, for me

[goldfishwars]

 

 

[Tugboat]

14 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I’m sure 80% of tackle prospects get given the “he’s a guard at the next level” tag. Tackles must be scarce as hell in the NFL, if you judge by NFL.com or ESPN or whatever 

I mean...yeah.  Actually good Offensive Tackle play is pretty scarce in the NFL.  😆  There are a lot of guys that end up pressed into starting, and even worse...backup/swing tackle roles in the NFL...who really probably shouldn't be.  But because of scarcity...that's the nature of the business.  And sometimes it gets QBs killed.  Or just completely jacks up a team's entire OLine because they're constantly having to make so many adjustments and concessions to get a guy on the edge more "help".

 

That said...Fuaga is absolutely a RT to me.

Fautanu, i really don't see why he can't be a LT.  He's not the pure prototype physically.  But he's got enough of pretty much every tool to believe he should be able to hold up just fine.  But he's a guy who, even if you try him there and it doesn't work out great...you can still "fail him inside" where i have no doubts whatsoever that he'd be a Pro Bowl caliber Guard.  He's just got the exact sort of traits and mentality to project that pretty easily.

 

Guys like Barton though...it's not even really a knock on them.  It's just a reality that the length and ability to cover ground isn't really there.  And the skillset and traits are going to have a far more positive impact inside somewhere.

 

Realistically...the vast majority of College Tackles are not going to be NFL Tackles.  You've got at least 2 of 'em on every college team.  Every year.  They're often teams just "making do" with the best athletes they can muster for the job and at that level, it's usually good enough.  But you dump them all into a hopper funneling down to ~64 Starting OT spots in the NFL, and yeah...a lot of them are going to get kicked inside to guard as you separate the wheat from the chaff.  There are certain basic traits that just become that much more important when you're suddenly going up against the "best of the best" on the edge every week.  That freaky athletic game wrecker you gear up for a couple times a year in college...suddenly you're facing one pretty much every week - and they've had more time to get stronger, faster, and more technically proficient.

 

 

4 hours ago, goldfishwars said:

 

 

 

Not surprising at all.  He moves really natural and easy and looks the part of this score on tape for sure.  Particularly the "elite" Agility grade.  Part of why he never looks like he's out of balance or control.