2024 OL Talk

[Daniel]

Mims isn’t a project though.

[Tugboat]

18 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Mims isn’t a project though.

Compared to Guyton and Kingsley?  Maybe not.  But in the grand scheme of things, i think he absolutely is.  He's surprisingly developed for how few games he's been healthy enough to play.  But that's more of a relative evaluation than an absolute, on a big picture scale.

 

Not to mention, just figuring out how to keep him healthy is likely a "project" in and of itself.

[Daniel]

18 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Compared to Guyton and Kingsley?  Maybe not.  But in the grand scheme of things, i think he absolutely is.  He's surprisingly developed for how few games he's been healthy enough to play.  But that's more of a relative evaluation than an absolute, on a big picture scale.

 

Not to mention, just figuring out how to keep him healthy is likely a "project" in and of itself.

He’s a risky pick, but it’s not because he’s not a ready starter. He lacks a large amount of tape, which you do usually want to see from OLs, and injuries are a huge concern (I want the Titans to stay far away from him because injuries have been crippling to the team for three years straight), and those are risks. But the play he’s shown on the field is top notch, and he’s got possibly more upside than any tackle in the class.

I don’t see how he’s unequivocally above any player that’s a project (as in guys that need to learn a lot before they’re ready to actually play).

[Tugboat]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

He’s a risky pick, but it’s not because he’s not a ready starter. He lacks a large amount of tape, which you do usually want to see from OLs, and injuries are a huge concern (I want the Titans to stay far away from him because injuries have been crippling to the team for three years straight), and those are risks. But the play he’s shown on the field is top notch, and he’s got possibly more upside than any tackle in the class.

I don’t see how he’s unequivocally above any player that’s a project (as in guys that need to learn a lot before they’re ready to actually play).

Realistically...Mims and Guyton are both going to be looked at as immediate starters.  You don't draft an OT in the first round and then sit them.  Not with the state of Tackle play in the current NFL.

 

Guyton has a lot more to learn.  He's a bigger "project".  But i don't get why people are acting like Mims is some "slam dunk" plug 'n play starter either.  He's only even started a handful of games in College.  Much less that jump to the NFL that is always an adjustment for Tackles.  Heck, veteran tackles tend to have trouble adjusting when changing teams at times.  He also has all sorts of weird little artifacts in his technique in the limited tape that need more polish.  There's signs of discipline but there are also plenty of very inconsistent elements.  If he plays the way he has at the NFL level, he's going to be a magnet for holding calls, when he gets his arms outside and wraps on.  He's got lots of good reps too, but because of the small sample...those icky ones are proportionally an issue.  His footwork is disciplined but i think shows the limits of his athleticism.  He's not nearly the same caliber natural mover and athlete as Guyton.  Which one ultimately makes the better NFL Tackle...?  Who knows.  Probably depends on coaching and health.  But that raw athleticism vs durability vs level of polish is what teams are going to have to weigh.

 

It's not like Guyton's tape is a super ugly mess.  It's just...very unrefined.  He's going to have to survive while learning.  But the bet is, he has the natural movement skills and athletic traits to do so.

 

I lean toward Guyton over Mims, mostly because of the injury thing.  But they're both a "project" to plug in Day1 in the NFL.  Different levels of refinement, but neither is a Joe Alt or even Taliese Fuaga as a RT.

 

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Realistically...Mims and Guyton are both going to be looked at as immediate starters.  You don't draft an OT in the first round and then sit them.  Not with the state of Tackle play in the current NFL.

 

Guyton has a lot more to learn.  He's a bigger "project".  But i don't get why people are acting like Mims is some "slam dunk" plug 'n play starter either.  He's only even started a handful of games in College.  Much less that jump to the NFL that is always an adjustment for Tackles.  Heck, veteran tackles tend to have trouble adjusting when changing teams at times.  He also has all sorts of weird little artifacts in his technique in the limited tape that need more polish.  There's signs of discipline but there are also plenty of very inconsistent elements.  If he plays the way he has at the NFL level, he's going to be a magnet for holding calls, when he gets his arms outside and wraps on.  He's got lots of good reps too, but because of the small sample...those icky ones are proportionally an issue.  His footwork is disciplined but i think shows the limits of his athleticism.  He's not nearly the same caliber natural mover and athlete as Guyton.  Which one ultimately makes the better NFL Tackle...?  Who knows.  Probably depends on coaching and health.  But that raw athleticism vs durability vs level of polish is what teams are going to have to weigh.

 

It's not like Guyton's tape is a super ugly mess.  It's just...very unrefined.  He's going to have to survive while learning.  But the bet is, he has the natural movement skills and athletic traits to do so.

 

I lean toward Guyton over Mims, mostly because of the injury thing.  But they're both a "project" to plug in Day1 in the NFL.  Different levels of refinement, but neither is a Joe Alt or even Taliese Fuaga as a RT.

 

Alt and Fuaga could both no question play RT if need be and transition to LT later on, I think both could easily accomplish that, they are far more developed and ready to go than Guyton or Mims.

 

Mims athletically is impressive considering that massive size and length and how he moves well for someone that size.  Guyton is super inexperienced but Mims is only because of injury issues, if he was healthy he would have played more.   Not sure that is the same with Guyton.  Did he ever start on TCU, I do not think so and he only started this past year a full season for Oklahoma and even this past year he did miss some games.  

 

Guyton is solid and has a good punch, that is interesting but Patrick Paul I feel is possibly more ready to start right now than Guyton.  Morgan also is more ready and should be picked ahead of Guyton I feel, Blake Fisher is another more proven RT than Guyton but probably will not be selected ahead of him.  

 

Both Guyton and Mims are very inexperienced no question, but Mims to me does have a higher upside.  Unless one thinks any large Georgia OL will just turn into another Isaiah Wilson.  That dude was super promising and lean athletically for someone so huge, just a house of a man but wow as a person and a worker he sucked big time.  

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Realistically...Mims and Guyton are both going to be looked at as immediate starters.  You don't draft an OT in the first round and then sit them.  Not with the state of Tackle play in the current NFL.

 

Guyton has a lot more to learn.  He's a bigger "project".  But i don't get why people are acting like Mims is some "slam dunk" plug 'n play starter either.  He's only even started a handful of games in College.  Much less that jump to the NFL that is always an adjustment for Tackles.  Heck, veteran tackles tend to have trouble adjusting when changing teams at times.  He also has all sorts of weird little artifacts in his technique in the limited tape that need more polish.  There's signs of discipline but there are also plenty of very inconsistent elements.  If he plays the way he has at the NFL level, he's going to be a magnet for holding calls, when he gets his arms outside and wraps on.  He's got lots of good reps too, but because of the small sample...those icky ones are proportionally an issue.  His footwork is disciplined but i think shows the limits of his athleticism.  He's not nearly the same caliber natural mover and athlete as Guyton.  Which one ultimately makes the better NFL Tackle...?  Who knows.  Probably depends on coaching and health.  But that raw athleticism vs durability vs level of polish is what teams are going to have to weigh.

 

It's not like Guyton's tape is a super ugly mess.  It's just...very unrefined.  He's going to have to survive while learning.  But the bet is, he has the natural movement skills and athletic traits to do so.

 

I lean toward Guyton over Mims, mostly because of the injury thing.  But they're both a "project" to plug in Day1 in the NFL.  Different levels of refinement, but neither is a Joe Alt or even Taliese Fuaga as a RT.

 

OK, then Mims is at a point where he will not immediately blow a bunch of blocks when do put him on the field.  Guyton will because he has absolutely no idea what he's doing with his hands, and may even have to switch sides as well.

Mims is a lot more technically refined.  I didn't say he was on the level of refinement you see from Alt or Fuaga, but he's way, way ahead of Guyton, and that's the point I keep making.  One is a player that you have to straight up teach the fundamentals to before he's ready to play.  You can put him out there, but he's almost certainly going to be a huge mess if you do.

That is only the case for one of those guys, and it's not Mims.

And on the athleticism thing, Mims ran a 5.07 40 at the combine vs Guyton's 5.19.  I don't think Guyton is necessarily a better athlete than Mims.  And if he is, it isn't by much.  And then Mims has 20 lbs on Guyton, with 2" longer arms and 1" bigger hands.

The tape for Mims is way better, the upside for Mims is higher, and Mims is ready to start.  I really don't see any logical argument that he's not a full round better prospect than Guyton, unless injuries just outweigh literally teaching someone how to play the position.

[Tugboat]

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Alt and Fuaga could both no question play RT if need be and transition to LT later on, I think both could easily accomplish that, they are far more developed and ready to go than Guyton or Mims.

I mean yeah, that's what i was saying.  I don't actually buy that Alt at RT is going to be as easy slam dunk as you do, but he's the epitome of a plug 'n play LT.  Fuaga is plug 'n play as a RT.  Don't know if he's a guy who will ever be an NFL LT though.  Nothing wrong with just getting a top end RT though and i'd imagine the team that drafts him will probably just leave him there.

But that was my point.  They're both in a completely different world from Guyton and Mims.  Maybe Mims is a bit closer, but the readiness and refinement gap between those two is a lot smaller than the gap from those two "projects" to Alt and Fuaga.  So i'd call both Guyton and Mims (and Kinglsey) "project" OTs.

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

Mims athletically is impressive considering that massive size and length and how he moves well for someone that size.  Guyton is super inexperienced but Mims is only because of injury issues, if he was healthy he would have played more.   Not sure that is the same with Guyton.  Did he ever start on TCU, I do not think so and he only started this past year a full season for Oklahoma and even this past year he did miss some games.  

I think this is the thing with Mims.  He "moves well for his size"...for somebody that huge.  But in a general sense, Guyton moves far more easily and naturally, and is still very far from a small human himself.

As far the other point, again...that's my point.  Mims "excuse" for being so raw with so little starting experience is basically..."he gets hurt a lot".  Which is a red flag in it's own right.  Compared to Guyton where it's like, "well...he made a total position switch".  And if i'm an NFL team looking at that team/system he's in...there's enough to work with there that if i trust my OLine coaching, i'd honestly just prefer to get him into my own program and learning "the right way" sooner, rather than later spending another year in college (pun intended i guess).

 

Different evaluators and teams are going to look at those things differently.  But for me, i have less reservations about why Guyton is so inexperienced/raw.  I think that's also probably the way a lot of NFL evaluators will lean.  Whether that's hubris about their own ability to "mold" a guy...overestimating Mims injury risk, only time will really tell.  But i think that's why, as questioned...Guyton tends to be seen pretty firmly as a solid first rounder.  But I still see Mims discussed in very much the same ballpark and wouldn't be surprised to see him go before Guyton either.

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

Guyton is solid and has a good punch, that is interesting but Patrick Paul I feel is possibly more ready to start right now than Guyton.  Morgan also is more ready and should be picked ahead of Guyton I feel, Blake Fisher is another more proven RT than Guyton but probably will not be selected ahead of him.  

I think in some ways, you might be right.  But it's a question of athletic and upside limitations over "polish" in a lot of cases.  Patrick Paul might be a little bit more ready to step in immediately, but he's going to get his doors beat in by all sorts of NFL caliber pass rushers.  That's not going to get a lot better with time.  Whereas Guyton may be "raw" but he's still got the athleticism, movement, and functional strength to help tread water while his technique develops.  And has the potential to actually develop into top level OT, rather than a guy who is just barely hanging on at best.

 

Blake Fisher is a guy i like worlds more than Paul too.  He's another really easy mover with light feet and a lot of that athletic upside.  Another "project" of sorts, less raw than Guyton maybe but again...he's got more experience and is still having issues at a school that clearly knows how to produce polished OLinemen.  That's not ideal.  Sometimes being less far down that road is advantageous.  His stuff is more that he has a tendency to play a little bit out of control at times though.  Which makes his balance look a bit shaky when he gets to reaching and lunging and caught off guard by things.  But unlike Paul, Fisher actually shows a ton of tape where he's more focused and in control and looks very fluid and powerful as an athlete who commands strong leverage.  And just moves like a completely different caliber of athlete.  I like him a lot as an earlier Day2 guy - over Kingsley as well.

 

These guys are all going to be asked to start very early, if not immediately though, if they're being taken in the 1st round.  The Jets are maybe the exception if they draft an OT...but with Tyron's deteriorating durability, they'll probably be at least spot starting soon enough.  When you grab a guy Day2, the pressure to start lessens a bit.  Day3 there's virtually none.  But Guyton and Mims would be shocking if they weren't grabbed in the 1st and Morgan also has an outside chance as well.

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

Both Guyton and Mims are very inexperienced no question, but Mims to me does have a higher upside.  Unless one thinks any large Georgia OL will just turn into another Isaiah Wilson.  That dude was super promising and lean athletically for someone so huge, just a house of a man but wow as a person and a worker he sucked big time.  

I think this is a fair perspective.  Personally i think Guyton's more easy natural movement gives him the bigger "upside".  But i can totally understand where people are coming from on Mims as well.  He's a big powerful man who shows solid movement that is "good for his size".  If you really believe in his ability to stay more healthy, and/or you just value a different set of traits more, it's very reasonable.  And i think that's where a lot of teams will probably be split on them...and probably others in the mix as well.

Where Fautanu slots in (some teams won't even see him as a Tackle) and JC Latham is in the mix too, if you just want an extremely powerful mauler who has the polish to understand that's what he is.

 

Just gets even more about preference and what you're looking for as you get further in to Day2 and on.

[jebrick]

If you need a day 1 starter I do not think either Mims or Guyton is it.  Both need coaching ( Guyton needs more).  Could both take the spot game 6?  Sure.  Mims sooner if he does not spend time in the hot tub.

 

All the Georgia Olinemen have an issue with dropping their heads.  Fix that and other smaller techs and Mims is pretty good but not day 1 good.

Edited April 18 by jebrick

[Scoundrel]

2 hours ago, jebrick said:

If you need a day 1 starter I do not think either Mims or Guyton is it.  Both need coaching ( Guyton needs more).  Could both take the spot game 6?  Sure.  Mims sooner if he does not spend time in the hot tub.

 

All the Georgia Olinemen have an issue with dropping their heads.  Fix that and other smaller techs and Mims is pretty good but not day 1 good.

Mims has to drop his head to see what dwarf he is blocking 

[goldfishwars]

On 4/12/2024 at 3:30 PM, TVScout said:

 

There are some fascinating tackle projects coming out this year and nearly all of them are giant human beings. 

Travis Clayton, OT, Basingstoke RFC
A former rugby player and boxer, Clayton's special pro day gives him a legitimate chance to get picked. He ran a 4.82 40-yard dash at 6-7, 301 and has 35-inch arm length. Jake Witt was drafted in the seventh round last year with size and speed, but less length.

Bayron Matos, OT, South Florida

A walk-on at USF who played college basketball, Matos has almost no experience and would need a long runway. His traits are drawing scouts to take a look because of a frame -- 6-7, 313, 35-inch arms -- and light feet indicating he'll grow into football. Matos ran a 4.92 at his pro day.

Anim Dankwah, OT, Howard

Howard offensive tackle Anim Dankwah is among the most fascinating prospects in the 2024 NFL Draft. Dankwah possesses dreamlike measurables for the next level, clocking in at 6-foot-8 and 353 pounds with arms longer than 35 inches and an 85.5-inch wingspan. Dankwah possesses rare size, mass, and length

 

[goldfishwars]

 

[Ozzy]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:30 AM, TVScout said:

 

That is cool and all, but what is the University of British Columbia?

 

That competition level is probably not even as good as high level high school football in America.  The guy can just lay on defenders but that will not fly against elite competition.  Curious what he would look like against even other draft prospects in a game.

 

But sure athletically that is impressive but even Brock Lesnar at 6-2 285 ran a 4.7 40, 35" vertical, 30 reps at 225.  There is clearly more to playing in the NFL than that, but sure is nice to have a baseline.  If Manu gets on the Eagles he has a chance because Stoutland is the best out there for OL development, but if he goes somewhere else chances are he does not stick around for long.   

 

 

Speaking of long OL...

 

Patrick Paul absolutely does not get enough conversation.  The dude is legit 6-7 1/2, 36 1/4" arm length at 331 pounds and had 30 reps at 225 which is way harder to do with arms that long.  He has always moved pretty damn well at Houston for a guy his size, with a little more power and strength added he could be great.  Only real issue is he is not super physical all the time but he can move for someone so huge.  Allowed two sacks over the past two years with 1034 pass blocking reps.

Edited April 20 by Ozzy

[nicfre2011]

54 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

That is cool and all, but what is the University of British Columbia?

 

That competition level is probably not even as good as high level high school football in America.  The guy can just lay on defenders but that will not fly against elite competition.  Curious what he would look like against even other draft prospects in a game.

 

But sure athletically that is impressive but even Brock Lesnar at 6-2 285 ran a 4.7 40, 35" vertical, 30 reps at 225.  There is clearly more to playing in the NFL than that, but sure is nice to have a baseline.  If Manu gets on the Eagles he has a chance because Stoutland is the best out there for OL development, but if he goes somewhere else chances are he does not stick around for long.   

 

 

Speaking of long OL...

 

Patrick Paul absolutely does not get enough conversation.  The dude is legit 6-7 1/2, 36 1/4" arm length at 331 pounds and had 30 reps at 225 which is way harder to do with arms that long.  He has always moved pretty damn well at Houston for a guy his size, with a little more power and strength added he could be great.  Only real issue is he is not super physical all the time but he can move for someone so huge.  Allowed two sacks over the past two years with 1034 pass blocking reps.

You mentioned Stoutland with the Eagles, which touches on something I have  been wondering about. I keep wondering how it seems like the Packers can consistently take mid to late round draft picks and turn them into average to solid starters?

[Ozzy]

4 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

You mentioned Stoutland with the Eagles, which touches on something I have  been wondering about. I keep wondering how it seems like the Packers can consistently take mid to late round draft picks and turn them into average to solid starters?

They draft well Jenkins, Myers, Tom, Runyan, Newman and Rhyan were all really solid picks and they can take underachieving big guys late like Walker and Njiman and develop them and have guys like Telfort and Caleb Jones just waiting to see if they turn out and if not so what they did not draft them highly or even draft them at all and were UDFA guys. 

Obviously Stoutland is not the only one that can coach OL, but all of those guys the Packers drafted were solid picks despite none of them being high selections.  Also helped getting playing time early when other starters got hurt.  And a lot of those guys can play multiple positions which helps a ton as well.  Even Jenkins has played OT when needed even though he is better at OG.

The past two drafts the Packers have killed it, so yeah that helps, and arguably the past three drafts they have got a variety of solid players in each class and especially last year.

[nicfre2011]

46 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

They draft well Jenkins, Myers, Tom, Runyan, Newman and Rhyan were all really solid picks and they can take underachieving big guys late like Walker and Njiman and develop them and have guys like Telfort and Caleb Jones just waiting to see if they turn out and if not so what they did not draft them highly or even draft them at all and were UDFA guys. 

Obviously Stoutland is not the only one that can coach OL, but all of those guys the Packers drafted were solid picks despite none of them being high selections.  Also helped getting playing time early when other starters got hurt.  And a lot of those guys can play multiple positions which helps a ton as well.  Even Jenkins has played OT when needed even though he is better at OG.

The past two drafts the Packers have killed it, so yeah that helps, and arguably the past three drafts they have got a variety of solid players in each class and especially last year.

Yeah, it seems like everyone is on the same page from the blocking scheme, prospect evaluations, and player development. I have admired the Packers for quite some time for their offensive line play.