2024 OL Talk

[G]

Would be interesting to get a QB's rankings especially how CJ Stroud would rank them being he's only a year removed and his former college doesn't have a top Tackle in the class. Like who would you want protecting you IF you had a top 1st round pick

[nicfre2011]

Thoughts on Brandon Coleman from TCU?

HEIGHT: 6-4 (34%*)

WEIGHT: 313 (83%*)
HANDS: 10 3/4 (82%*)

ARM: 34 5/8 (76%*)
SPAN: 83 4/8 (88%*)
FORTY: 4.99 (C) (93%*)    
10 YARD: 1.73 (C) (82%*)
VERTICAL: 34 (C) (98%*)

BROAD: 114 (C) (96%*)

[Daniel]

39 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

Thoughts on Brandon Coleman from TCU?

HEIGHT: 6-4 (34%*)

WEIGHT: 313 (83%*)
HANDS: 10 3/4 (82%*)

ARM: 34 5/8 (76%*)
SPAN: 83 4/8 (88%*)
FORTY: 4.99 (C) (93%*)    
10 YARD: 1.73 (C) (82%*)
VERTICAL: 34 (C) (98%*)

BROAD: 114 (C) (96%*)

Loved his tape in 2022. Hated his tape in 2023. Tests like an elite athlete.

Definitely worth early Day 3 consideration. I could be convinced late Day 2.

[goldfishwars]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

Loved his tape in 2022. Hated his tape in 2023. Tests like an elite athlete.

Definitely worth early Day 3 consideration. I could be convinced late Day 2.

Strong Senior Bowl week too, has guard/tackle versatility. Definitely a dude I’d target day two if I needed help there.

[nicfre2011]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

Loved his tape in 2022. Hated his tape in 2023. Tests like an elite athlete.

Definitely worth early Day 3 consideration. I could be convinced late Day 2.

I am interested to hear what you liked about 22 and didn't like about 23...and if you have any opinions on what may explain the difference between those two years.

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, nicfre2011 said:

I am interested to hear what you liked about 22 and didn't like about 23...and if you have any opinions on what may explain the difference between those two years.

For a detailed scouting report, I don’t have anything, but he came into the season as one of my top ranked OLs. My assumption was that his job was a lot easier with Avila next to him.

[nicfre2011]

42 minutes ago, Daniel said:

For a detailed scouting report, I don’t have anything, but he came into the season as one of my top ranked OLs. My assumption was that his job was a lot easier with Avila next to him.

Interesting. Some additional info from nfldraftblitz.com. I am not familiar with the TCU offensive style, but despite giving up 17 QB hurries in 2023 those hurries didn't turn into QB hits (3) and sacks (0) like they did in 2022. I am not sure if the fact that he played at LT and LG in 2023 skews the numbers or not. I am curious as to when he was moved to LG and why...performance or injury? I wouldn't think you would usually move your LT inside due to injury unless you had nobody on the roster that you are comfortable with playing LG.

As a sophomore in 2021 he played in 11 games and a total of 479 snaps. He conceded 5 QB hurries, no QB hits, and no sacks while playing most of his snaps at left guard.

In 2022 as a junior Coleman saw action in 13 games and totaled 885 snaps. He gave up 14 QB hurries, 8 QB hits, and 3 sacks while playing at left tackle.

In 2023 as a senior Coleman saw action in 11 games and played a total of 720 snaps for the Horned Frogs. He allowed an unipressive 17 QB hurries, 3 QB hits, and no sacks while playing the majority of his snaps at left tackle, and the rest at left guard.

Edited April 11 by nicfre2011

[Daniel]

47 minutes ago, nicfre2011 said:

Interesting. Some additional info from nfldraftblitz.com. I am not familiar with the TCU offensive style, but despite giving up 17 QB hurries in 2023 those hurries didn't turn into QB hits (3) and sacks (0) like they did in 2022. I am not sure if the fact that he played at LT and LG in 2023 skews the numbers or not. I am curious as to when he was moved to LG and why...performance or injury? I wouldn't think you would usually move your LT inside due to injury unless you had nobody on the roster that you are comfortable with playing LG.

As a sophomore in 2021 he played in 11 games and a total of 479 snaps. He conceded 5 QB hurries, no QB hits, and no sacks while playing most of his snaps at left guard.

In 2022 as a junior Coleman saw action in 13 games and totaled 885 snaps. He gave up 14 QB hurries, 8 QB hits, and 3 sacks while playing at left tackle.

In 2023 as a senior Coleman saw action in 11 games and played a total of 720 snaps for the Horned Frogs. He allowed an unipressive 17 QB hurries, 3 QB hits, and no sacks while playing the majority of his snaps at left tackle, and the rest at left guard.

I don't like using hurries and pressures as a stat.  Too variable, and way too dependent on QB play to be reliable.  OLs I think are one of the simpler positions to evaluate in a basic sense (i.e. not coming up with detailed reports) because you can just watch one game, and keep an eye on an OL guy, and they play so many snaps, a single game can net a lot of watching.  And I think it's more useful to just watch a couple of games, and note whenever an OL does something negative, like missing a block, allowing stunt through, getting walked back by a bull rush, or straight up allowing penetration.  Someone can allow a DL right through them, and if the play is going the other way, that DL will have no effect on the play, even if they wreck the OL in that one rep.

For the difference, maybe TCU's QB this year is just better at escaping in the pocket.

The game I watched this year was Baylor, iirc.  And I just remember seeing Coleman make a lot of mistakes and get beat a lot.  Avila was my favorite IOL prospect last year, so I watched a lot of TCU OL tape in 22, and thought Coleman was about to be a top tackle prospect, but when I watched him I just thought, oh man, that's really bad.

I think I saw something about him playing through an injury too, but I could be mixing that up.

[THE DUKE]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:11 AM, Hunter2_1 said:

I’m sure 80% of tackle prospects get given the “he’s a guard at the next level” tag. Tackles must be scarce as hell in the NFL, if you judge by NFL.com or ESPN or whatever 

You can argue that good OT's are scarce as hell in the NFL

[Tugboat]

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

I don't like using hurries and pressures as a stat.  Too variable, and way too dependent on QB play to be reliable.  OLs I think are one of the simpler positions to evaluate in a basic sense (i.e. not coming up with detailed reports) because you can just watch one game, and keep an eye on an OL guy, and they play so many snaps, a single game can net a lot of watching.  And I think it's more useful to just watch a couple of games, and note whenever an OL does something negative, like missing a block, allowing stunt through, getting walked back by a bull rush, or straight up allowing penetration.  Someone can allow a DL right through them, and if the play is going the other way, that DL will have no effect on the play, even if they wreck the OL in that one rep.

For the difference, maybe TCU's QB this year is just better at escaping in the pocket.

The game I watched this year was Baylor, iirc.  And I just remember seeing Coleman make a lot of mistakes and get beat a lot.  Avila was my favorite IOL prospect last year, so I watched a lot of TCU OL tape in 22, and thought Coleman was about to be a top tackle prospect, but when I watched him I just thought, oh man, that's really bad.

I think I saw something about him playing through an injury too, but I could be mixing that up.

This is a kind of interesting breakdown of how you approach it.

 

I also share a lot of the same skepticism when it comes to "tracking" of pressures and hurries and things.  I feel like Washington's offense is basically the epitome of this.  Where there are a peculiar amount of times where they just deliberately leave a backside rusher unblocked.  I feel like a lot of people end up dinging Fautanu for this, but it's clearly by design where the protection is skewed, the play is hot and meant to get the ball out without an actual post-snap read at all, and just have the ball gone before that guy off the backside edge can even get anywhere near impacting the QB.  But i always wonder how many places would tally that as a "pressure" or "hurry".

 

It's one of those things that makes me really question Penix a lot as a QB.  More than Fautanu for completely (deliberately) "missing" a block.  But it feels like it's often "tracked" differently, depending on who is charting that snap.

[Daniel]

44 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

This is a kind of interesting breakdown of how you approach it.

 

I also share a lot of the same skepticism when it comes to "tracking" of pressures and hurries and things.  I feel like Washington's offense is basically the epitome of this.  Where there are a peculiar amount of times where they just deliberately leave a backside rusher unblocked.  I feel like a lot of people end up dinging Fautanu for this, but it's clearly by design where the protection is skewed, the play is hot and meant to get the ball out without an actual post-snap read at all, and just have the ball gone before that guy off the backside edge can even get anywhere near impacting the QB.  But i always wonder how many places would tally that as a "pressure" or "hurry".

 

It's one of those things that makes me really question Penix a lot as a QB.  More than Fautanu for completely (deliberately) "missing" a block.  But it feels like it's often "tracked" differently, depending on who is charting that snap.

I was reviewing Latham against Texas the other day and debating on a lot of reps if he got beaten, or if he just stopped trying because the play was going the other direction.

[Tugboat]

37 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I was reviewing Latham against Texas the other day and debating on a lot of reps if he got beaten, or if he just stopped trying because the play was going the other direction.

Bama did do a little bit of that (about to do a lot more lol).  But i never really saw that as much with Latham.

 

To me, his big issue is that he simply doesn't have the quickness and recognition to redirect if it's not immediately right there in front of him.  He's a mammoth human being and when he gets his hands on a guy it's usually over pretty quick.  But if you ask him to change directions or adjust coverage on the fly, he has problems.  He doesn't reorient to unexpected inside pressure well.  I'm not going to put the blitzer outside stuff on him at all, that ain't his fault.  Their scheme generally seemed oriented to provide supplementary blockers on the backside of plays like that.  But unaccounted blitzers, that's not really on the Tackle.  But he has clear issues in changing track to provide that "inside out" protection.  He also has a QB who likes to "Danger Russ" his way into problems rolling to the right, which doesn't help.  lol.  But given the way he manhandles people most of the time, it shouldn't be a big issue if Latham is able to redirect and redeploy on new blocks...but he seems to struggle with that.  It's extremely rare to see him redirect from one block to another.  He either has his target from the snap or he doesn't have 'em at all.

 

But Washington seem to run a weird number of plays that are simply straight up naked on the backside.  Where Fautanu engages and dominates his block...but there's somebody coming off that back edge that is less important than getting an extra body out to the other side of the field to block in space.

[nicfre2011]

8 hours ago, Tugboat said:

Bama did do a little bit of that (about to do a lot more lol).  But i never really saw that as much with Latham.

 

To me, his big issue is that he simply doesn't have the quickness and recognition to redirect if it's not immediately right there in front of him.  He's a mammoth human being and when he gets his hands on a guy it's usually over pretty quick.  But if you ask him to change directions or adjust coverage on the fly, he has problems.  He doesn't reorient to unexpected inside pressure well.  I'm not going to put the blitzer outside stuff on him at all, that ain't his fault.  Their scheme generally seemed oriented to provide supplementary blockers on the backside of plays like that.  But unaccounted blitzers, that's not really on the Tackle.  But he has clear issues in changing track to provide that "inside out" protection.  He also has a QB who likes to "Danger Russ" his way into problems rolling to the right, which doesn't help.  lol.  But given the way he manhandles people most of the time, it shouldn't be a big issue if Latham is able to redirect and redeploy on new blocks...but he seems to struggle with that.  It's extremely rare to see him redirect from one block to another.  He either has his target from the snap or he doesn't have 'em at all.

 

But Washington seem to run a weird number of plays that are simply straight up naked on the backside.  Where Fautanu engages and dominates his block...but there's somebody coming off that back edge that is less important than getting an extra body out to the other side of the field to block in space.

I am curious to get your take on how Evan Neal compares to JC Latham (as draft prospects)? Are there any warning signs with how Neal has seemingly failed to develop that could be applied to Neal from a size, movement, technique perspective? Are there any lessons learned with Neal that a team could apply to Latham on what should be a focus of his training or what he is/isn't asked to do based on what the Alabama system had him do? Obviously they are two different players at two different points in time, just curious as to why Neal has struggled to take the next step and if that can be used to help put Latham in the best position to succeeed?

[TVScout]

 

[Ragnarok]

2 hours ago, TVScout said:

 

Jesuuuuuus