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***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

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After taking some time to reflect on it, I still love it.  Luke Skywalker was always a whining baby.  The first line he had in the entire saga was whining because he didn't get to go do whatever it was and he instead had to help his uncle.  He whined so hard to Yoda that Yoda decided not to train him.  He whined, whined, whined throughout the original trilogy.  Every time the chips were down, he did something instinctive (cancel his training to help Han/Leia), or he whined about it.  Fast forward 30 years, add a hero complex and you get a Luke who whines super hard.

Then Yoda shows up.  Absolutely effing brilliant scene that had me close to tears.  Yoda still called Luke, 30 years on and the Last Jedi out there, "Young Luke" because Luke is acting so petulant.  Then, when Luke is about to burn down the Jedi texts, he stops himself (just like he did with Ben) because he's instinctual, but doesn't always follow through on his stupid instincts.  What does Yoda do?  He burns the building down anyway to show Luke that the Jedi aren't those books.  He doesn't even bother telling Luke that Rey took the books. 

Just like Yoda told Luke exactly what he needed to hear in ROTJ, he did the same this time, and it turned Luke into a better person and a better Jedi.  Instead of bellyaching and commiserating on an island to die, Luke took action, atoned for his actions, took accountability for his part in them, confronted his nephew without even fighting him, saved the resistance and sacrificed himself to give the resistance hope again. 

Luke finally had to answer for his petulance, haughtiness, instinctual behavior, and this movie did all that and more as it finally helped Luke overcome his biggest weaknesses.  Think of what his "weakness" was in the original trilogy.  He wasn't given one, any weakness, other than Vader being his father.  At least not in certain terms.  This movie finally highlighted those weaknesses and made Luke do something about them.

Seems the people who have a problem with this one never wanted to acknowledge Luke's problems.  I never understood why.  Luke was not a likable hero in the original trilogy.  At all.  Cocky, arrogant, all the things I've already mentioned, and all of them right down to the end. 

Somehow those things are also being complained about.  That wink he gave to C-3PO?  OMG, classic.  Him brushing off the dirt from the attacks?  He was taunting Ben.  I rolled my eyes so hard when I saw people complaining about that because they can't even see the importance of some things unless there's literally a narrator saying, "Here we have Luke taunting Ben to make sure Ben comes down to fight him." 

Luke was handled perfectly in this movie.  Mark Hamil might not see it, but he's not going to see it because Luke is a huge part of his life and he doesn't want to acknowledge that the Luke in this series was very similar to the Luke in the original.  Very similar.  It all adds up if you open your eyes and look at Luke objectively throughout the first trilogy.

 

Other than Luke, I thought the movie was a hell of a movie.  Period.  It was so different from expectations for a Star Wars film.  The main villain dies unexpectedly (you knew it was coming as it built up to it, but you didn't expect it when you went to this movie).  A long, convoluted Star Wars style mission... Fails.  Laura Dern's character, built up to be a traitor, actually turns out to be smart and calculated and brave.  Poe continues to learn lessons (30 years from now, will future Star Wars fans complain when Poe Dameron does something instinctive and dangerous in another trilogy because they didn't pay attention to his character from this series?).  Benicio Del Toro actually turns out to be just as selfish and neutral as he said he was? 

I loved how Rian was able to turn Star Wars conventions on their head while still maintaining that Star Wars feel of charm and adventure and humor and suspense and good/evil and everything that makes Star Wars Star Wars while simultaneously going against everything that makes Star Wars Star Wars. 

The side monsters/creatures were amazing.  Porgs are giving Ewoks a run for their money.  I died like three times because of them. 

Yoda stole the damn show.  Yoda also opened the door for Luke to have a significant role in the third one.  How many other times have you seen a Force Ghost interact with the physical world?  And yet Yoda smacked Luke on the face with his cane.  Opening up a whole new precedent there. 

Rose was about 10 times better than I thought she would be.  Finn took kinda a back seat, which was a little disappointing, but forgivable considering everything that was going on in this one.  While he took a back seat, we got more out of Poe (whom I think is going to have a bigger role in the next trilogy). 

I only wish I got to see Luke have a modern effects lightsaber fight.  That's the one thing that didn't happen that I wanted to happen in this trilogy. 

And I'm very 100% meh on Rey overall.  She's very meh as a character.  Thankfully, so was Luke in the original trilogy.  Just like the original trilogy, it's the other characters and the charm of it all that makes me love what Disney is doing right now. 

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Now that’s I’ve seen it twice, my opinion has changed and I did enjoy it more on my second viewing. It’s not my favorite Star Wars movie that belongs to ESB but it’s definitely in my top 5: ESB, ANH, RO, RotJ and TLJ. I really loved Luke in this movie, so human and such redemption. I also feel better about the overall theme of the movie, loved the ending even more. I will say it did make me dislike how Finn got the short end of the stick and still don’t care for Ren and Rey. There are other minor issues but all movies have that tbh, I can get over those. 

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10 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fans-reacted-to-the-empire-strikes-back-in-19-1821551259

Some of the people in here are gonna look like the people who were upset about things in Empire Strikes Back.  I lol'd at the guy who was mad that Leia was going for Han when they thought Luke was the right guy. 

Maybe. It depends on how IX goes. If Abrams follows his own vision, it may not go so well. 

Edited by sunnygsm

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22 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

After taking some time to reflect on it, I still love it.  Luke Skywalker was always a whining baby.  The first line he had in the entire saga was whining because he didn't get to go do whatever it was and he instead had to help his uncle.  He whined so hard to Yoda that Yoda decided not to train him.  He whined, whined, whined throughout the original trilogy.  Every time the chips were down, he did something instinctive (cancel his training to help Han/Leia), or he whined about it.  Fast forward 30 years, add a hero complex and you get a Luke who whines super hard.

I already loved this movie, but this post made it even better. (didn't quote the whole thing for length)

I've moved on from trying to convince the haters it's a great movie. It's a pointless debate, but I'm very happy and this is definitely a top 3 for the franchise IMO. 

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Finally saw it, have some thoughts...

Liked how consistent all the character arcs were with the main theme "failure is the best teacher". But they were haphazardly handled in a few cases (due to the wonky tone). The Gambling Planet had an interesting purpose (the greyness of the world, Finns naiveness etc.) but it felt really out of place, like from a different movie. I know too people had problems with Poe and his arc. Specifically how his actions caused so much needless destruction. I didnt mind it (although, again could have been handled better). Leia (and the Vice Admiral) puts up with it because of the whole "spark" angle of the resistance. His burns brightest and its why so many of the cannon foddler follow the dude. Leia probably sees alot of her young self in Poe and knows he just needs to learn how to better channel it. Serves the theme, but again was somewhat haphazardly handled.

I wish movies would stop the whole characters giving exposition to each other even though those same two characters talked about it the scene before.

Example: "We need to sneak through the door and find the McGuffin"

Next Scene "Ok we are here, lets sneak through the door and find the McGuffin"

Next Scene "Ok we are through the door, remember, we need to find the McGuffin!"

Alot of the Finn-Rose stuff stumbles into this. This is just a script pet peeve of mine; and many movies/shows resort to it.

 

The Rey - Kylo dynamic is by far the best part of the movie. But they really could have spent more time fostering their relationship. The wanting to turn each other was a nice fit, but I dont know if it was fully earned by the storytelling. Rey flipped her opinion of Kylo way too quickly. If they had spent more time exploring and figuring out each others reasons and their resulting actions, the struggle at the climax would have had more weight behind it. 

 

I got really excited with the whole "let old things die" speech as the First Order and Resistance seemed to be both on the brink of being snuffed out. For a second I thought they could take the 3rd act and 3rd movie into a completely different direction, away from the standard Empire vs Resistance conflict. But that might be too risky for Disney. (Insert Frys speech from Futurama about what audiences want).

 

There were some facepalming moments, and those were frustrating. But eh, its a massmarketed AAA+++ brand and a kids movie. Cant fault it too much. The 1st Act was ok, the 2nd act was mix of horrible and meh, 3rd Act was its best. Overall it was a flawed movie, but at least a fun one. Looks damn good too.

Edited by animaltested
grammar

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It's been a while since I watched it, but I don't recall the Luke from ROTJ being whiney at all. He was composed and in control for the majority of that film. 

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5 hours ago, sunnygsm said:

It's been a while since I watched it, but I don't recall the Luke from ROTJ being whiney at all. He was composed and in control for the majority of that film. 

In Return of the Jedi, look went from whiny to extremely overconfident bordering on cocky and arrogant.  He complained to Yoda and Obi Wan for not telling him the truth about Vader.  He called himself a Jedi Master before he was actually a Jedi Master and before his training was complete (before he went back to Yoda).  He put on a fake peaceful ease that was broken when the Emperor taunted him and goaded him into attacking.  He was dark, brooding and emo throughout the movie.  Remember him running off and Leia chasing him and their discussion?  Classic emo stuff. 

Fast forward 30 years, add a hero complex (destroying the Empire), add a major failure and you very easily just had a very faithful depiction of Luke.  I get why people are upset with it.  If Luke was your hero throughout the original trilogy, you're going to hate this version of Luke.  If you look at Luke objectively, however, and you treat him as the kid that he was throughout the original trilogy, this version is absolutely Luke.  Search your feelings, you know it to be true. 

5 hours ago, animaltested said:

There were some facepalming moments, and those were frustrating. But eh, its a massmarketed AAA+++ brand and a kids movie. Cant fault it too much. The 1st Act was ok, the 2nd act was mix of horrible and meh, 3rd Act was its best. Overall it was a flawed movie, but at least a fun one. Looks damn good too.

Some pretty fare criticism here as far as a movie, but a lot of the criticism occurs extensively throughout the first trilogy, and you have to remember the audience. 

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Overall, I liked this movie a lot. I don't know that I like it better than Episode 7: The Force Awakens.

It felt like a Star Wars movie, and you can see how they are kind of writing out and wrapping up the original characters. I'm curious to see what they'll do for the next one in terms of wrapping up General Leia's part. Clearly the first was wrapping up Han Solo, this one wrapped up Luke, and General Leia would have made sense to wrap-up in the next one. Though I think they'll be able to do that off screen.

I can see what some people really didn't like it though. Maybe they thought it wasn't faithful enough to Star Wars and Luke or introducing so many new things.I can also see people complaining about the humor. As the humor at time did feel more like the prequel humor at times.

I really enjoyed how they handled Luke though. It made sense. And I like the connection aspect of the force that Snoke was able to use and then Luke was able to use.

I can't really say that I have a knock against the film.

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4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

In Return of the Jedi, look went from whiny to extremely overconfident bordering on cocky and arrogant.  He complained to Yoda and Obi Wan for not telling him the truth about Vader.  He called himself a Jedi Master before he was actually a Jedi Master and before his training was complete (before he went back to Yoda).  He put on a fake peaceful ease that was broken when the Emperor taunted him and goaded him into attacking.  He was dark, brooding and emo throughout the movie.  Remember him running off and Leia chasing him and their discussion?  Classic emo stuff.

Don't think he ever calls himself a Jedi master, a knight yes. He's not complaining when he talks to Obi Wan. I don't agree with your characterization completely. It doesn't really matter though. 

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I really didn't like it. I loved the Luke story line and don't get the dislike many have for him almost making a mistake in killing Kylo. But other than that, it was just so freaking childish. They killed Snoke off way too easily, he was the only villain that made me care. Kylo does nothing for me as the antagonist. The little Asian girl was a horrendous actor, and her storyline was so forced. Why not let the audience draw their own conclusions on the mistreatment and clear devious ways the people on that casino planet made their $$$? Why did they have to literally explain every freaking thing. The entire movie seemed like it was about a slow motion car chase then the third act happens in about 10 seconds. I still don't think that I care about any of these new characters, maybe Rey but even then...

Also, I don't remember nearly as many scenes with humans basically prancing around deep space with no repercussions in the originals.

I may see it again to see if it gets better but there were so many things I hated. I do believe that my nostalgia for the originals clouds my judgment in a major way, and that I look for a unattainable balance of Star Wars magic and dark'ish realism. I still did really like Rogue One and even preferred the A New Hope reboot (I mean The Force Awakens).

Also, so much forced comedy. Nothing was 'smooth' or well timed.

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Saw it for a 2nd time today.  Here’s a few takes:

-Finn’s subplot didn’t bother me as much this time.  He’s lived in a bubble his entire life and this journey was a crash course in how the universe works. How much gray area there is. That there are terrible ppl out there besides the First Order.

-I still can’t stand Rose tho. Also, her crashing into Finn at the end was even worse the 2nd time.  There’s no way she could’ve gotten that far ahead to take him out but what would’ve been better would’ve been for her to crash into him to save him and for her to take out the cannon herself.  THAT would be saving him and the others.  Instead she put everyone at risk. 

-Luke’s final stand was even better.  A bunch of us erupted in applause when they showed him seated at Achto.  It was awesome.  

Which leads to Leia’s scene in space being even more credible.  We saw Luke’s full power set.  We had to see hers too. It makes sense.  They are Anakin Skywalker’s children!

-The scenes with Poe and Holdo have generated quite a bit of controversy with fans about who was right or wrong.  Seeing it a second time cemented that both sides were right and wrong. Poe is part of military command and needs to respect that.  The Admiral doesn’t have to tell him anything... but she should have let them know at some point.  I thought she was a mole for the FO but they didn’t play that aspect up enough to use that as reasoning for her to withhold the plan to keep it safe.  

Yes, Poe disobeyed Leia’s orders but he made the right call.  They took out a friggin Dreadnaught.  That thing would’ve wiped the rebel base out in the end long before Luke could’ve shown up.  But even more so, those pilots had Poe’s back 100%.  They were right there by his side.  And it’s not like Leia called off the bombers.  I’ve seen so much on twitter mostly about how awful Poe is bcuz of this and it’s such a disservice to those fallen pilots.  Maybe next time build some faster bombers. 😏

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1 hour ago, thrILL! said:

-I still can’t stand Rose tho. Also, her crashing into Finn at the end was even worse the 2nd time.  There’s no way she could’ve gotten that far ahead to take him out but what would’ve been better would’ve been for her to crash into him to save him and for her to take out the cannon herself.  THAT would be saving him and the others.  Instead she put everyone at risk. 

It was important for her to live for Finn's development. At this point in the film, he finally learned to fight and not just fear and run from the First Order. He was willing to make the sac play, however, Rose taught him that you also need a reason to fight, the people you love and care for. I agree, however, that this final step could have been handled in a better way. I can't think of a good one that fits the surrounding elements of the film though. Two things remain integral to this; 1) We are shown that Finn is 100% willing to fight and die to defeat the First Order and 2) That he discovers WHY it is that they fight, realizing that if they sacrifice everything to defeat the FO, then they lost all the same.

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