Raider Training Camp 2024

[Raiderlife24]

15 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Not sure Glaze shouldn’t be the starting RT week 1. 
 

 

I thought he played well too. From camp reports to nice showings in the preseason, he seems to be a solid pick. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

7 hours ago, NickButera said:

I agree with your premise. But look at history to get a good gage. Only two rookie TEs in history have ever out up over 1000 yards. Ditka and Pitts. No rookie TE has ever put up 1100 yards. Ever. 

Hall of Fame tight ends develop and come into their own after a few years. Sam Laporta had 860 yards and 9 tds and it's up there as a top 5 all time performance for a rookie TE. 

What you're asking for isn't HOF numbers. It's the best of all time numbers. 

Kelce didn't get 1000 till his 3rd year. And only had double digit tds 3 times in his career. Gronk did it his second year but only had double digit tds 5 times in his career. HOF TE stats aren't HOF wrs stats

All of this goes back to my original point about positional value and the selection being a luxury pick considering we had a 2nd rounder from the year before on the roster who was the full time starter would put up around 650 and 4.  Bowers needs to produce significantly better than that for the pick to pose good value. 

This is a team that had major holes at QB, CB and OT and we neglected to address those positions for a TE.  All of those positions are much greater value than a TE especially when considering we already had Mayer on the roster.  The only way that makes sense is if Bowers produces at a level significantly better than what Mayer would produce considering we spent a top 15 pick on him. 

[MrOaktown_56]

Also I'm just gonna go ahead and say it: if TT's picks have been predicated on the coaches that he's hired and meeting their needs AND AP does have a good eye for talent (as a former player), that could explain why our early round picks are looking good thus far.

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

All of this goes back to my original point about positional value and the selection being a luxury pick considering we had a 2nd rounder from the year before on the roster who was the full time starter would put up around 650 and 4.  Bowers needs to produce significantly better than that for the pick to pose good value. 

This is a team that had major holes at QB, CB and OT and we neglected to address those positions for a TE.  All of those positions are much greater value than a TE especially when considering we already had Mayer on the roster.  The only way that makes sense is if Bowers produces at a level significantly better than what Mayer would produce considering we spent a top 15 pick on him. 

QB sure. OT was well addressed between Munford, who was honestly serviceable last year and Glaze, who has shown out in camp so far. CB I agree, but again look at who was taken off the board where we picked in the 2nd. It was unlucky and we took JPJ instead.

The thing with Bowers is, why can't him and Mayer coexist? 2 tight end sets can work very well. They improve run blocking and pass blocking, plus if they players are capable of getting open, functionally it's no different than having a TE out there as opposed to a WR.

Bowers was arguably a generational TE prospect. He literally reached faster in game speeds than any TE in the NFL. Ridiculous YAC threat. Good hands. Can block pretty decently in the SEC. Plus a redzone threat. Why not add a versatile chess piece to the offense that will be here for 8-10+ years if you aren't sure about the QB? I see this as an investment into our future QB (Sanders, Beck, etc.) If they come into a situation with good protection and weapons, they are much more likely to succeed long-term.

Positional value matters, but we have good players at high-value positions like WR, DE, OT already. I don't think its fair to evaluate positional value in a vacuum because it's overrated given that half of first round picks are busts every year even accounting for positional value.

 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

QB sure. OT was well addressed between Munford, who was honestly serviceable last year and Glaze, who has shown out in camp so far. CB I agree, but again look at who was taken off the board where we picked in the 2nd. It was unlucky and we took JPJ instead.

The thing with Bowers is, why can't him and Mayer coexist? 2 tight end sets can work very well. They improve run blocking and pass blocking, plus if they players are capable of getting open, functionally it's no different than having a TE out there as opposed to a WR.

Bowers was arguably a generational TE prospect. He literally reached faster in game speeds than any TE in the NFL. Ridiculous YAC threat. Good hands. Can block pretty decently in the SEC. Plus a redzone threat. Why not add a versatile chess piece to the offense that will be here for 8-10+ years if you aren't sure about the QB? I see this as an investment into our future QB (Sanders, Beck, etc.) If they come into a situation with good protection and weapons, they are much more likely to succeed long-term.

Positional value matters, but we have good players at high-value positions like WR, DE, OT already. I don't think its fair to evaluate positional value in a vacuum because it's overrated given that half of first round picks are busts every year even accounting for positional value.

 

It hilarious because the same people who say "take the best player available" then changed the narrative to "positional value" when the thing they asked to happen, happened. 

The fact Snead/McVey were trying hard to move up to get Bowers (for all those in the it was easy to move up crowd, it wasn't) should tell you a lot about Bowers "value". They tried like crazy to get in the top 10 for him and teams didn't want to move back. 

 

[agarcia34]

Expecting 1,000 from a rookie TE is wild. 700 yards and anything above 6 TDs would be a massive successful season for Bowers.

[Darbsk]

4 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

All of this goes back to my original point about positional value and the selection being a luxury pick considering we had a 2nd rounder from the year before on the roster who was the full time starter would put up around 650 and 4.  Bowers needs to produce significantly better than that for the pick to pose good value. 

This is a team that had major holes at QB, CB and OT and we neglected to address those positions for a TE.  All of those positions are much greater value than a TE especially when considering we already had Mayer on the roster.  The only way that makes sense is if Bowers produces at a level significantly better than what Mayer would produce considering we spent a top 15 pick on him. 

I don’t disagree with the logic here. If we’re going to draft another TE then he needs to be something special to advocate drafting him over a potential franchise RT or CB2, especially as I’m high on Mayer too. Saying that, I’d rather draft a great TE than an average  OT or average CB. It’s a balance of BPA and need.

I honestly like the pick as I think he’s very versatile and probably the least likely player to outright bust that we could have picked at that spot. But, he does need to produce for sure.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

The thing with Bowers is, why can't him and Mayer coexist? 2 tight end sets can work very well. They improve run blocking and pass blocking, plus if they players are capable of getting open, functionally it's no different than having a TE out there as opposed to a WR.

 

 

I don't think his argument is that they can't coexist, rather, what that existence ultimately is. 

Bowers could very well be the best TE ever to grace the earth. Mayer could be the 2nd best TE ever to grace the earth. That won't matter if their target share and actual production cuts into the other's and they're ultimately producing at the typical run of the mill round 3 TE level. 

Who cares if Bowers is great if he tops out at like 650yds and 4tds per year because we're spreading the ball around too much. You can get that from a day 2-3 TE. 

Conversely, what does a Bowers rise do with Mayer? A top 40 who did nothing to lose his job and was hailed as Baby Gronk. If Bowers takes off and does a Kittle/Kelce and Mayer is chugging along for 300 yds per year, he becomes a wasted pick. 

It's certainly possible we go 2 TE heavy and/or chess piece Bowers around, and 2 of our top 3 receiving options are TEs. We've seen it with Gronk and Hernandez before, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

But a lot of people seem absolutely deaf to the fact that we spent two pretty premium picks on TEs in back to back seasons and it's far more likely one becomes a redundant afterthought or both wind up eating too much of the other's production to justify the selections than it is that both concurrently produce at levels justifying their respective selections. 

You can draft Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Jerry Rice in back to back to back classes, at least one of them isn't becoming an All-Time HOF WR (at least not until we start seeing 6000+ yard passing seasons on a routine basis). 

Edited August 21 by ronjon1990

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

It hilarious because the same people who say "take the best player available" then changed the narrative to "positional value" when the thing they asked to happen, happened. 

The fact Snead/McVey were trying hard to move up to get Bowers (for all those in the it was easy to move up crowd, it wasn't) should tell you a lot about Bowers "value". They tried like crazy to get in the top 10 for him and teams didn't want to move back. 

 

The Rams have a top tier QB and didn't have a ton of holes to fill, they could afford the luxury of going TE early. 

The return on investment with first round TE's has been god awful for decades. 

I like Bowers but unless he's a perennial All-Pro type of player it wasn't worth the pick.

[Frankie2Gunz]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I don't think his argument is that they can't coexist, rather, what that existence ultimately is. 

Bowers could very well be the best TE ever to grace the earth. Mayer could be the 2nd best TE ever to grace the earth. That won't matter if their target share and actual production cuts into the other's and they're ultimately producing at the typical run of the mill round 3 TE level. 

Who cares if Bowers is great if he tops out at like 650yds and 4tds per year because we're spreading the ball around too much. You can get that from a day 2-3 TE. 

Conversely, what does a Bowers rise do with Mayer? A top 40 who did nothing to lose his job and was hailed as Baby Gronk. If Bowers takes off and does a Kittle/Kelce and Mayer is chugging along for 300 yds per year, he becomes a wasted pick. 

It's certainly possible we go 2 TE heavy and/or chess piece Bowers around, and 2 of our top 3 receiving options are TEs. We've seen it with Gronk and Hernandez before, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

But a lot of people seem absolutely deaf to the fact that we spent two pretty premium picks on TEs in back to back seasons and it's far more likely one becomes a redundant afterthought or both wind up eating too much of the other's production to justify the selections than it is that both concurrently produce at levels justifying their respective selections. 

You can draft Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Jerry Rice in back to back to back classes, at least one of them isn't becoming an All-Time HOF WR (at least not until we start seeing 6000+ yard passing seasons on a routine basis). 

You clearly are comprehending what I am saying as some other people are not.  This is exactly my point....

[Humble_Beast]

You need cornerstones on both sides of the ball

Offense : Tae, Brock, Miller, JPJ

Defense: Maxx , Wilkins , Moehrig , Jones 

 

we just need a QB for the offense 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

You need cornerstones on both sides of the ball

Offense : Tae, Brock, Miller, JPJ

Defense: Maxx , Wilkins , Moehrig , Jones 

 

we just need a QB for the offense 

Moehrig is a cornerstone now? And JPJ has had like 3 practices as a professional. Maybe rethink some of this. 

 

[MrOaktown_56]

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I don't think his argument is that they can't coexist, rather, what that existence ultimately is. 

Bowers could very well be the best TE ever to grace the earth. Mayer could be the 2nd best TE ever to grace the earth. That won't matter if their target share and actual production cuts into the other's and they're ultimately producing at the typical run of the mill round 3 TE level. 

Who cares if Bowers is great if he tops out at like 650yds and 4tds per year because we're spreading the ball around too much. You can get that from a day 2-3 TE. 

Conversely, what does a Bowers rise do with Mayer? A top 40 who did nothing to lose his job and was hailed as Baby Gronk. If Bowers takes off and does a Kittle/Kelce and Mayer is chugging along for 300 yds per year, he becomes a wasted pick. 

It's certainly possible we go 2 TE heavy and/or chess piece Bowers around, and 2 of our top 3 receiving options are TEs. We've seen it with Gronk and Hernandez before, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

But a lot of people seem absolutely deaf to the fact that we spent two pretty premium picks on TEs in back to back seasons and it's far more likely one becomes a redundant afterthought or both wind up eating too much of the other's production to justify the selections than it is that both concurrently produce at levels justifying their respective selections. 

You can draft Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Jerry Rice in back to back to back classes, at least one of them isn't becoming an All-Time HOF WR (at least not until we start seeing 6000+ yard passing seasons on a routine basis). 

It depends on who the other targets are of course. Meyers and Adams are very good. That will inevitably cut into targets for Mayer and bowers. HOWEVER, when Adams leaves Bowers can become the focal point of this offense. This pick isn’t for this year, it’s for the future. Plus if everyone has mid production but great efficiency and the offense is good translating to wins, that’s ultimately the point. 

[big_palooka]

2 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

It depends on who the other targets are of course. Meyers and Adams are very good. That will inevitably cut into targets for Mayer and bowers. HOWEVER, when Adams leaves Bowers can become the focal point of this offense. This pick isn’t for this year, it’s for the future. Plus if everyone has mid production but great efficiency and the offense is good translating to wins, that’s ultimately the point. 

This is what I don't understand with some fans. Building a roster is a marathon, not a sprint. Nobody bothers to think ahead to what happens when the Raiders finally draft a QB? How will a pick like Bowers help, etc.  The team was not competing for a Super Bowl this year so a generational prospects sure looks better for next year than a run of the mill first rounder. 

[MrOaktown_56]

6 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

This is what I don't understand with some fans. Building a roster is a marathon, not a sprint. Nobody bothers to think ahead to what happens when the Raiders finally draft a QB? How will a pick like Bowers help, etc.  The team was not competing for a Super Bowl this year so a generational prospects sure looks better for next year than a run of the mill first rounder. 

If Bowers becomes a generational tight end, this will be laughable discourse.