Norm Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 If he is an AP it's obviously a great pick. I just can't take a guard top 15 with the state of this team. Guards aren't helping push you over the edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, Slinky said: I was only talking about Nelson vs the edge rushers in our range. My argument is that Nelson isn't necessary a lock to be a stud. Generally you want collegiate Tackle athleticism to play Guard in the NFL. May very well be a situation that because ND is so damn good on the line that Nelson is athlete enough to play in the pros, but it's not a lock. Gotta see how he looks in drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 I think the argument of pass rushers v. Nelson at 14 would be you get good-great interior lineman later in the draft. The same can not be said about pass rushers. prospects with rare talent go quick. And the left overs usually aren’t great. Plus for this group... I trust we can get pro bowl oline talent in the 4-5 rounds because they do it consistently. Not so much for pass rushers. So i would pass. Nelson is a good fit for teams like Denver, cardinals, lions, etc that annually struggle with oline play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Just now, Green19 said: I think the argument of pass rushers v. Nelson at 14 would be you get good-great interior lineman later in the draft. The same can not be said about pass rushers. Apparently Sitton, Lang, Linsley, Tretter, Bakhtiari juxtaposed by Biegel and Fackrell isn't enough for some people to get it. They get upset because, you know... common sense, and then they try to act like best player available is applicable because they're upset about having their opinions proven to be bad. The history of the position proves that it's not a position that should be taken in the first round period. Since the merger (1970), there have been 61 first round guards. Let's say there was an average of 30 teams since 1970. That's 1,410 first round draft picks. That's 4% since 1970. And that's not even fair to my argument because offensive linemen were twice as important in the 70's to early 90's. Let's make this really simple. Since 2002, when there were 32 NFL teams. There have been 480 first round picks since 2002. Of those 480 first round draft picks, 17 of them were guards. That's 3%. NFL teams are taking guards in the first round 3% of the time. There have been 210 top 14 picks since 2002. Two of them were guards. Zero pro bowls, zero all pros. So either Nelson is the best guard prospect in 15 years, or, according to every NFL GM for the past 15 years, it's a really stupid idea to take a guard at 14th overall. It's so damn frustrating to me because here we are with a bottom 20 defense in two consecutive seasons, we have nobody who stays healthy at pass rusher and not a whole lot of promise for the future, we've THRIVED at the guard position considering our investment there since Thompson has been here while struggling to find a pass rusher, and people think we can just ignore the defense in order to focus on LITERALLY the least important position on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibrett15 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 2 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said: Come on, man. It was the 32nd overall pick for a 24 year old veteran receiver with obvious talent. Who are you saying was their best pass rusher? They traded their #1 pass rusher for a second round pick and he just had 17 sacks with the Cardinals this year. Cooks isn't exactly lighting it up for the Patriots. Remember when everyone said 200 catches and a billion touchdowns? He had 65 catches and 7 touchdowns. The Patriots have absolutely screwed themselves with pass rushers and they currently have nobody, and their defense has suffered because of it. They just happen to have played crap teams and have the best defensive coordinator in the league. If Patricia gets hired as a head coach, the Patriots are going to wish they kept that first round pick and took a pass rusher - any pass rusher. The money says they are, but they're also selling more tickets than interior linemen, safeties and interior defensive linemen. Don't act like that's not a factor. You know it's true. Simple question incoming. It can be answered with a single name. The goal is winning Super Bowls. You have a clone machine. It clones players at 21 years old and you are guaranteed to keep them for the duration of their career. Do you clone Reggie White or Jerry Rice? If you say Rice, you're awful and shouldn't even be allowed to play franchise mode in Madden. The point is that it's more nuanced than just "all WRs are bad ideas for teams" and of course I'll clone reggie white. But Reggie is a pass rushing DL. I'm arguing that WR are more important than: Interior DL who stuff the run like Snacks Harrison or Haloti Ngata Running backs. Interior OL like C/G, especially those who are not excellent pass protectors. Edge, QB, CB are definitely more valuable than WR. But yet the patriots decided to move on from Chandler Jones, a guy who would be undoubtedly their best defender on the team, and then went out and traded for Brandin Cooks because they had a desperate desperate need for speed. And a need for a guy who can play outside WR and not just duplicate their existing slot WRs who are really just Gronk insurance like Edelman and Amendola. Cooks had a great great year btw. 9.5 yards/target is ELITE company. Its what Julio Jones averages for his career. Jerry Rice did that only twice since targets were tracked, and he averaged 8.3 y/t. aaaaand.... TT is moving away from GM role so I'm cutting this short here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, skibrett15 said: The point is that it's more nuanced than just "all WRs are bad ideas for teams" and of course I'll clone reggie white. But Reggie is a pass rushing DL. I'm arguing that WR are more important than: Interior DL who stuff the run like Snacks Harrison or Haloti Ngata Running backs. Interior OL like C/G, especially those who are not excellent pass protectors. Edge, QB, CB are definitely more valuable than WR. But yet the patriots decided to move on from Chandler Jones, a guy who would be undoubtedly their best defender on the team, and then went out and traded for Brandin Cooks because they had a desperate desperate need for speed. And a need for a guy who can play outside WR and not just duplicate their existing slot WRs who are really just Gronk insurance like Edelman and Amendola. Cooks had a great great year btw. 9.5 yards/target is ELITE company. Its what Julio Jones averages for his career. Jerry Rice did that only twice since targets were tracked, and he averaged 8.3 y/t. aaaaand.... TT is moving away from GM role so I'm cutting this short here. Agree on everything but Haloti Ngata. A NT who not just provides some juice, but also can get his own is extremely valuable. Man had a 3 year stretch with 16 sacks and 11 pass deflections on top of elite run defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollino14 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said: My argument is that Nelson isn't necessary a lock to be a stud. Generally you want collegiate Tackle athleticism to play Guard in the NFL. May very well be a situation that because ND is so damn good on the line that Nelson is athlete enough to play in the pros, but it's not a lock. Gotta see how he looks in drills. He’s going to be. I’m not advocating taking Nelson, but he’s the best OL I’ve seen at ND. Better than Zach Martin. Whoever drafts Quenton Nelson will not regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicPez Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 The thought of taking Nelson at 14 isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, if you're sure he's going to be the next big thing at guard, but it's a bad idea given two points of context. The first is that Green Bay's scouting and coaching staff have a proven ability to field good guards with minimal draft investment. The second is that 14th overall is, hopefully, the highest Green Bay will be picking in the draft for the rest of Rodgers' career. This means that they may have a chance at the kind of talent that usually gets scooped up before Green Bay has a shot at them. Ideally, that would mean a game-breaking, reliable pick at edge rusher. And if that kind of talent isn't available, the pool of talent at corner and wide receiver is going to be a cut above what the Packers usually see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 There are years when the best guard falls down into the 20's - take one that year if the mood strikes you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredpack Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, cannondale said: There are years when the best guard falls down into the 20's - take one that year if the mood strikes you Yeah, this is a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 just googled "r smith georgia" after that 3rd down stick. impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 minute ago, incognito_man said: just googled "r smith georgia" after that 3rd down stick. impressive. He lost his feet on that stick. Impressive that he was able to prevent the 3rd down conversion, but there was another play where his initial contract was textbook...except for him dropping to his knees and not continuing to maintain his feet and drive his legs through the ball carrier. In the end, the stop was made, but at the next level it might be a little more challenging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Just now, cannondale said: There are years when the best guard falls down into the 20's - take one that year if the mood strikes you Yes, but also just continue to get your all-pro guards in the fourth round. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodjahs12 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Cleveland 1-Sam Darnold QB NY Giants 2-Josh Rosen QB Indianapolis 3-Bradley Chubb DE Cleveland 4-Saquan Barkley RB Denver 5-Baker Mayfield QB NY Jets 6- Lamar Jackson QB Tampa Bay 7-Quentin Nelson OG Chicago 8- Minkah Fitzpatrick CB San Francisco 9- Calvin Ridley WR Oakland 10-Mike McGlinchey OT Miami 11-Derwin James S Cincinnati 12-DaRon Payne DT Washington 13- Vita Vei NT Green Bay 14-Arden Key DE Arizona 15-Denzel Ward CB Baltimore 16-Clelin Ferrell DE LA Chargers 17-Connor Williams OT Seattle 18-Josh Jackson CB Dallas 19-Christian Wilkins DT Detroit 20-Ronnie Harrison S/CB Tennessee 21-Roquan Smith LB Buffalo 22-Josh Allen QB Carolina 23-Harold Landry DE LA Rams 24-Orlando Brown OT Jacksonville 25- Malik Jefferson LB Buffalo 26-Isiah Oliver CB Atlanta 27-Kolton Miller OT Philadelphia 28- Donte Jackson CB Pittsburgh 29- Carlton Davis CB Minnesota 30-Billy Pricr OG New England 31-Austin Bryant DE New Orleans 32-Justin Reid S Cleveland 33- Courtland Sutton WR NY Giants 34-Derrius Guice RB Indianapolis 35- Ken Webster CB Tampa Bay 36-Maurice Hurst DT Cleveland 37-Rahsaan Evans LB NY Jets 38-Kerryon Johnson RB New England 39-DeShon Elliott S Chicago 40-James Washington WR Denver 41-Martinas Rankin OT Oakand 42-Duke Ejiofor DE Miami 43-Nick Chubb RB Cincinnati 44-Isiah Wynn OG/OC Washington 45-Mike Hughes CB Green Bay 46-Equanimeous St Brown WR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodjahs12 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Spent a couple hours on that. Considering where we're picking and the various mocks I've done ahead of us in the first I'd love either Key,Ward or Ferrell. I love the value we can find at either TE or WR in round 2. Felt spoiled for choice at pick 46 but I went with Brown because he gives Rodgers a skill set he hasn't had much. Brown suffered in Notre Dame's offense but I think he would blossom here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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