Malfatron Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Outpost31 said: Guess we gotta trade for Thomas now. value seattle will take is no less than a 1st. id rather not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 With all the Kirk or Case ; Case or Kirk chit chat some time back. Took a look at the 2018 stats and all I'll say is Case better kick his game into a higher gear cause Kirk's got it all over him at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Leader said: With all the Kirk or Case ; Case or Kirk chit chat some time back. Took a look at the 2018 stats and all I'll say is Case better kick his game into a higher gear cause Kirk's got it all over him at this stage. That is why I have constantly said that the Cousins signing is a great move by MN. In his three seasons as full-time starter for the Redskins he has averaged 27 TDs 12 INTs and ~4600 yards. Case Keenum's breakout year he was 22-7-3500. Cousins' highest INT number was 13, so it isn't like he is a turnover machine. Cousins should at worst replicate Keenum's 2017. Is he going to win MVP? I seriously doubt it. But with that defense, he doesn't have to. Signing Cousins keeps the Vikings' championship window wide open until they have to start really paying all of their young defensive talent. [edit] I also fully believe that Keenum doesn't have that higher gear. Edited September 29, 2018 by ThatJerkDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 1 hour ago, ThatJerkDave said: That is why I have constantly said that the Cousins signing is a great move by MN. In his three seasons as full-time starter for the Redskins he has averaged 27 TDs 12 INTs and ~4600 yards. Case Keenum's breakout year he was 22-7-3500. Cousins' highest INT number was 13, so it isn't like he is a turnover machine. Cousins should at worst replicate Keenum's 2017. Is he going to win MVP? I seriously doubt it. But with that defense, he doesn't have to. Signing Cousins keeps the Vikings' championship window wide open until they have to start really paying all of their young defensive talent. [edit] I also fully believe that Keenum doesn't have that higher gear. Cousins is #2 in passing yards - #4 in TD's. Keenum is 17th and tied for 22nd. Adam Thielen is #1 in the league in receiving yards. Stefon Diggs is #10. The highest DEN WRs are Emmanuel Sanders at #16 and Demariyius Thomas at #61. Neither team has a strong focus on the running game. Its still early in the season - only 3-4 games in - so no conclusions can be reached yet - but Case better up his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Case is 2-1. Kirk is 1-1-1. Case doesn't have to up his game to prove the Vikings should have kept him. Not at all. All he has do to is get the Broncos to the playoffs and he's vindicated. Kirk Cousins is still exactly what the Redskins thought he was. A wildly inconsistent QB who can go from great to good to average to bad and will probably give you 3 great games, 4 good games, 5 average games and 4 terrible games each and every regular season. Kirk has an average game. A good game (that should have been an average game ended with an interception if not for a terrible call on Clay) A terrible game. A great game. The only people who have to do any upping of any kind are the Vikings coaches, the Vikings defense. Everybody said they were a QB away. Well now they've got their QB. Their defense is gone, their offensive line is still crap, their draft capital won't be good enough to dig them out, and their cap space isn't healthy enough to dig them out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kepler Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 The original argument was always Kirk against Case's 2017 season. It was never a straight up statistical comparison between the two. Case brought the noise in 2017. After Cousins signed people wondered if he was an improvement on Case's 2017 season. That's where the comparison should be made because that's what the argument was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Kepler said: The original argument was always Kirk against Case's 2017 season. It was never a straight up statistical comparison between the two. Case brought the noise in 2017. After Cousins signed people wondered if he was an improvement on Case's 2017 season. That's where the comparison should be made because that's what the argument was. This is entirely correct. The original discussion centered - for some reason unknown to me - around Keenum's 2017 season - as if it were some off the charts success. It wasnt. I made the points previously - please make note of them again. 1. Cousins had better stats than Keenum in 2017. Straight up comparison - Cousins wins. 2. Cousins has had better stats - for each of the last three years - than Keenum's "stellar / outbreak" 2017 season. I'm not a Cousins fan. I not rooting for the guy or playing him up. I've simply been pointing out that within the context and framing of this discussion (as established by others) - Cousins kicks Keenum's a$$ every which way. The same "trend" (if it cant in fact be called a rule by this stage) is happening again this season. In other words - there was no reason to think Cousins couldnt match or exceed Keenum's 2017 efforts when he took over in MN - which was the original question. Would Cousins be as good? Edited September 29, 2018 by Leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kepler Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 I'm not saying Keenum had some "off the charts success" in 2017 that automatically invalidates Cousins accomplishments, and I'm not sure that was the argument of anyone else. For the money they spent to sign Cousins, was the difference in salary in relation to 2017 production, and how much that difference (salary) affects their ability to maintain their talent level elsewhere, really worth it? My argument is no, and that they will regret that decision sooner rather than later, but I can also understand that other's have a differing opinion of salary and talent values. But that's basically why I don't understand comparing their accomplishments this year. Different teams, different situations. It makes more sense, to me, to compare Keenum on the Vikings in 2017 to Cousins first year on the Vikings, this year. And then comparing their salaries for relative value against future opportunities to retain other important players, particularly on defense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 @Kepler, that's the key. Case is getting paid 15 million. Kirk is getting paid 24 million. Next year, it's 21 million for Case. 29 million for Kirk. That extra 9/10 million is an extra GOOD starter. The Vikings had the building blocks to continue building an excellent team around Case, who got them to the NFC Championship game. Now the Vikings have no building blocks to build around Cousins, who hasn't won a single playoff game and is among the least consistent quarterbacks in the NFL. Cousins is better than Keenum, but he's much more expensive and not nearly as consistent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Kepler said: I'm not saying Keenum had some "off the charts success" in 2017 that automatically invalidates Cousins accomplishments, and I'm not sure that was the argument of anyone else. For the money they spent to sign Cousins, was the difference in salary in relation to 2017 production, and how much that difference (salary) affects their ability to maintain their talent level elsewhere, really worth it? My argument is no, and that they will regret that decision sooner rather than later, but I can also understand that other's have a differing opinion of salary and talent values. But that's basically why I don't understand comparing their accomplishments this year. Different teams, different situations. It makes more sense, to me, to compare Keenum on the Vikings in 2017 to Cousins first year on the Vikings, this year. And then comparing their salaries for relative value against future opportunities to retain other important players, particularly on defense. I'll be careful with my word choices. The comment "off the charts success" clearly was mine and not attributed to anybody else. However - you cant have a statistical discussion - which the original discussion was (targeting Keenum's 2017 season) - and then enter the "is he (or will he) be worth it now" variable. The original discussion dealt with talent (or perceived talent) as represented by past performance. Which player will provide the bigger bang for the buck - is completely subjective - and was unknowable back when the discussion took place. Which player provided the bigger bang for the buck this year - will have to wait till the seasons over to fully assess. Edited September 29, 2018 by Leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Vince Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Outpost31 said: Now the Vikings have no building blocks to build around Cousins The Vikings are built to win now they don't need building blocks . Although they're underachieving that's a pretty strong roster probably the strongest in the league, only a matter of time before they start to click, see 2011 NYG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 31 minutes ago, St Vince said: The Vikings are built to win now they don't need building blocks . Although they're underachieving that's a pretty strong roster probably the strongest in the league, only a matter of time before they start to click, see 2011 NYG. Except their best pass rusher is going through some serious personal problems and their OL is pretty shaky... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted September 30, 2018 Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 16 hours ago, Joe said: Except their best pass rusher is going through some serious personal problems and their OL is pretty shaky... Sacks: http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCalebR Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Not all sacks are created equal, stats can be misleading. Still, the Vikings line is pretty much all playing like replace level players at this point. But also, Danielle Hunter is their best pure pass rusher. He's got a lot of juice. Everson was on the backside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kepler Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Leader said: Sacks: http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks Cousins with 13 sacks already? Pretty porous. Unrelated, but man arod is looking middle of the pack this year stat wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.