jetskid007 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Bobby816 said: IMO this team has to go after a QB in FA that's legit or trade for a QB that's under 30. This older vet QB thing for development and leadership stuff has to end. Like I stated I'd be all for bringing a guy like McCown back if we drafted a QB at 6 or trade up for 1, but I'm not bc of this regime. I still absolutely think they'd start McCown until we were eliminated from the playoffs and give us the same McCown gives us the best chance to win stuff. You can really sub in and older QBs name into what I just, and I'll think the same. So what's the best way to eliminate that? Don't have any old QBs on the roster. Make it a Rookie QB vs Hack vs (whoever we could target under 30) battle. I don't think there should be any rush to start a rookie if they're not ready. No problem with them entering the season with McCown and eventually hand over the keys if that's the route they decide to go. If we're trading up for a QB, we're giving up on Hack anyway... if he were to perform well/have a market towards the end of camp, you might as well trade him. The other thing that is important to understand with McCown is that he's a willing teacher and is fine in whatever role he's given. Fitz's ego got the best of him after his breakout 2015 season, whereas everything we know about McCown is he's not that type of player. I think he'd be re-signing understanding that there's no guarantee he holds the job (or even wins it for that matter), but the team would still value him tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby816 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, jetskid007 said: I don't think there should be any rush to start a rookie if they're not ready. No problem with them entering the season with McCown and eventually hand over the keys if that's the route they decide to go. If we're trading up for a QB, we're giving up on Hack anyway... if he were to perform well/have a market towards the end of camp, you might as well trade him. The other thing that is important to understand with McCown is that he's a willing teacher and is fine in whatever role he's given. Fitz's ego got the best of him after his breakout 2015 season, whereas everything we know about McCown is he's not that type of player. I think he'd be re-signing understanding that there's no guarantee he holds the job (or even wins it for that matter), but the team would still value him tremendously. He might be willing to teach and maybe just had bad luck. But Petty looked worse than last year and Hack still couldn't even see the field. So whatever he was teaching... didn't work. I get you cant make a poor player a good player. But what evidence do we have that supports that he was a good teacher to Hack? I only say Hack bc I believe Petty is done in with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskid007 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Bobby816 said: He might be willing to teach and maybe just had bad luck. But Petty looked worse than last year and Hack still couldn't even see the field. So whatever he was teaching... didn't work. I get you cant make a poor player a good player. But what evidence do we have that supports that he was a good teacher to Hack? I only say Hack bc I believe Petty is done in with us. McCown would be most helpful "teaching" a rookie QB. The learning curve from rookie year to year 2 is the greatest one a player experiences in the NFL. Petty got worse because he doesn't have the football IQ, vision, and "feel" for the NFL game. The WCO requires you to think and process a lot more information than Gailey's "spread" offense, which is what Petty was most comfortable in. He went from one of the most simplistic offenses in college (Baylor)-and-pro football to one of the most difficult. I've always rooted for Petty, but just don't think he has a football mind for the game. Doesn't mean he isn't smart, just has a hard time thinking and processing on the field. As far as Hack we can't really say yet. I don't think Hack's problem has anything to do with "learning" - he has great work ethic, knows and understands the game well, and has the tools. I saw that his mechanics have cleaned up a lot from preseason year 1 to year 2. His issues are a broken internal clock and confidence. Those two things effect everything from accuracy to recognizing down/situation and fixing those two things is all in his head. If he's ever able to he'll shock a lot of people with his ability, but there's no telling how long that will take and if it will ever happen. McCown can only support him, teach him how to get the most out of his career, give him advice what he's learned about himself and what he would've done differently; essentially be a mentor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby816 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 13 minutes ago, jetskid007 said: McCown would be most helpful "teaching" a rookie QB. The learning curve from rookie year to year 2 is the greatest one a player experiences in the NFL. Petty got worse because he doesn't have the football IQ, vision, and "feel" for the NFL game. The WCO requires you to think and process a lot more information than Gailey's "spread" offense, which is what Petty was most comfortable in. He went from one of the most simplistic offenses in college (Baylor)-and-pro football to one of the most difficult. I've always rooted for Petty, but just don't think he has a football mind for the game. Doesn't mean he isn't smart, just has a hard time thinking and processing on the field. As far as Hack we can't really say yet. I don't think Hack's problem has anything to do with "learning" - he has great work ethic, knows and understands the game well, and has the tools. I saw that his mechanics have cleaned up a lot from preseason year 1 to year 2. His issues are a broken internal clock and confidence. Those two things effect everything from accuracy to recognizing down/situation and fixing those two things is all in his head. If he's ever able to he'll shock a lot of people with his ability, but there's no telling how long that will take and if it will ever happen. McCown can only support him, teach him how to get the most out of his career, give him advice what he's learned about himself and what he would've done differently; essentially be a mentor. I agree about what you said about Petty and Hack. And for sure agree with that you see I jump from guys after the rookie year. BUT... most the time when you see that, that rookie got a chance to play. I have no confidence in Bowles playing a young guy until we are eliminated from the playoffs, bc he's coaching for his job. I still stand by that Hack will get a chance to play before a rookie (Rosen might be the only exception here). In essence it'd be a rookie year for Hack (he's just a tad older than Mayfield FYI). I just don't get why a guy like Hack cant be the guy who starts Week 1, draft a rookie to double down perhaps and maybe take a flier on a FA like Fales or Savage (just examples bc they are somewhat vets, but have upside). I feel like McCown being here will prevent us from playing a young guy as much as we should, just like it did this last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsandI Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bobby816 said: I agree about what you said about Petty and Hack. And for sure agree with that you see I jump from guys after the rookie year. BUT... most the time when you see that, that rookie got a chance to play. I have no confidence in Bowles playing a young guy until we are eliminated from the playoffs, bc he's coaching for his job. I still stand by that Hack will get a chance to play before a rookie (Rosen might be the only exception here). In essence it'd be a rookie year for Hack (he's just a tad older than Mayfield FYI). I just don't get why a guy like Hack cant be the guy who starts Week 1, draft a rookie to double down perhaps and maybe take a flier on a FA like Fales or Savage (just examples bc they are somewhat vets, but have upside). I feel like McCown being here will prevent us from playing a young guy as much as we should, just like it did this last year. Honestly, I wish I know if Teddy Bridgewater understands WCO well under Pat Shurmur. Jimmy G struggled WCO but he survived just fine. Only God knows how much did Hackenberg study WCO crap with Jeremy Bates this year. Goff aced the first test McVay gave to him because he had studied/practiced WCO under Mike Groh last year. It is really hard to know for sure. You know what is the saddest part. John Morton's playbook is infused with both WCO and air raid (run and shoot). Those run and shoot concepts were used by Chan Gailey where Bryce Petty had shown something before he got injury. Petty could not do any better this year due to what? Morton being stick with basic offense or Petty being a joke. Whatever, he is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskid007 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Bobby816 said: I agree about what you said about Petty and Hack. And for sure agree with that you see I jump from guys after the rookie year. BUT... most the time when you see that, that rookie got a chance to play. I have no confidence in Bowles playing a young guy until we are eliminated from the playoffs, bc he's coaching for his job. I still stand by that Hack will get a chance to play before a rookie (Rosen might be the only exception here). In essence it'd be a rookie year for Hack (he's just a tad older than Mayfield FYI). I just don't get why a guy like Hack cant be the guy who starts Week 1, draft a rookie to double down perhaps and maybe take a flier on a FA like Fales or Savage (just examples bc they are somewhat vets, but have upside). I feel like McCown being here will prevent us from playing a young guy as much as we should, just like it did this last year. Can't say that for sure. Prior to training camp both Maccagnan and Bowles acknowledged that the "plan" was to start McCown for the first 4-6 games and turn it over to Hack during a conference with season ticket holders. The plan changed because Hackenberg wasn't ready for it... we gave him every opportunity and he simply didn't show enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoLewis57 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Do we have any clue what an offense run by Bates would look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby816 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, jetskid007 said: Can't say that for sure. Prior to training camp both Maccagnan and Bowles acknowledged that the "plan" was to start McCown for the first 4-6 games and turn it over to Hack during a conference with season ticket holders. The plan changed because Hackenberg wasn't ready for it... we gave him every opportunity and he simply didn't show enough. Yes but that’s doesn’t support the thinking of McCown being a good teacher. It also doesn’t support the idea that Bates is a good QB coach bc he’s failed to even develop some talent into even getting a starting chance. Like you stated Hack has all the tools he lacks confidence which I agree with and an internal clock which I also agree with. But Bates working with him for 2 years couldn’t help that? Mccown couldn’t teach him that? Bc really confidence comes with reps. So really all they’d need to teach him is internal clock. And they couldn’t combined do that? That’s my issue. Somethings missing with Bates and/or McCown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsandI Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 9 hours ago, MoLewis57 said: Do we have any clue what an offense run by Bates would look like? He could continue Payton's offense or go back to Gary Kubiak's offense. He had been away from NFL for 4 years so nothing is set in stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoLewis57 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 8 hours ago, JetsandI said: He could continue Payton's offense or go back to Gary Kubiak's offense. He had been away from NFL for 4 years so nothing is set in stone. So no then hahah. Darn. I hope he is good at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsandI Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, MoLewis57 said: So no then hahah. Darn. I hope he is good at least. Nobody knew Morton could call plays just fine for Jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoLewis57 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, JetsandI said: Nobody knew Morton could call plays just fine for Jets. Very true. Hopefully we have struck gold with him but I wish I knew more about him is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsandI Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Just now, MoLewis57 said: Very true. Hopefully we have struck gold with him but I wish I knew more about him is all Yeah... I wanted well known names too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockice_8 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 9 hours ago, JetsandI said: He could continue Payton's offense or go back to Gary Kubiak's offense. He had been away from NFL for 4 years so nothing is set in stone. Dude he never worked with Kubiak at all, why would he run Kubiak's offense? He worked with Gurden, Dennison, Shannahan, Carroll (in college), Mike Tice among others but never Kubiak Kubiak was the long time Shanny OC but left DEN in 2005 for a HC job in HOU. Dennison became the OC that he worked with for 2 years until he became OC himself for one season in 2008. He never worked with Kubiak at all or Payton for that matter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GangGreen420 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 10 hours ago, Bobby816 said: Yes but that’s doesn’t support the thinking of McCown being a good teacher. It also doesn’t support the idea that Bates is a good QB coach bc he’s failed to even develop some talent into even getting a starting chance. Like you stated Hack has all the tools he lacks confidence which I agree with and an internal clock which I also agree with. But Bates working with him for 2 years couldn’t help that? Mccown couldn’t teach him that? Bc really confidence comes with reps. So really all they’d need to teach him is internal clock. And they couldn’t combined do that? That’s my issue. Somethings missing with Bates and/or McCown We need to not use Hackenberg as a way to evaluate other coaches/players. Maybe you could question Bates ability as a QB coach, but the guy has already practically stated he doesn’t believe in Hack. So that’s his evaluation on Hackenberg. Obviously he’s tried to work with the guy but when you suck, you suck. It has nothing to do with Bates or McCown. He is simply just not a good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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