Offseason Rumor Thread

[BleedTheClock]

18 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

What traits are you speaking of here that make someone like Josh Allen not go in the 4th round? Look at the QB's who've gone in the 4th over the years:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position

First of all, he has ELITE physical tools. Like, the top 1% of all QB prospects ever. On top of that, he's a great leader, played in a pro style scheme, and does the little things (keeping eyes downfield, stepping into his throws, manipulating the pocket) well. Every one of his traits is tied to sloppiness, which can be coached out. He's playing with a bunch of scrubs, which makes him look a lot worse than he actually is. He's running for his life every snap, trying to find someone open when nobody ever is. Oh, and his most impressive trait is his ability to zip the football into tight spots. He can complete passes that no other QB can because of the raw arm talent. DB's that are right behind the WR can't close the window because of the rocket that he possesses. He takes care of the football for the most part, especially given the utter chaos that surrounded him every single week. He's tough as nails.

His flaws are his accuracy and anticipation. Those are traits he can improve on. In fact, he did improve his accuracy and touch quite a bit despite people pointing at his completion percentage. He had to throw a ton of passes into the dirt and out of bounds during his college career. He didn't have a lot of bubble screens or hitch routes to eat up zone coverage. He played in a deep-shot offense that asked him to hit crosses off of play action deep down the field. Your completion percentage is going to suffer as a result.

 

The other guys listed had nowhere near the physical talent, nor the polish as pro style passers, nor the toughness and leadership ability.

 

Don't be silly. Allen is flawed for sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can find Josh Allen's outside of the 1st round in typical draft classes.

[jrry32]

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

Don't be silly. Allen is flawed for sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can find Josh Allen's outside of the 1st round in typical draft classes.

People could have made the same argument for Blaine Gabbert and Jake Locker. Yet, they ended up being project QBs whom you shouldn't have drafted before the 4th round. Just because a guy has great physical tools doesn't mean he's entitled to be a first round pick.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

45 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

First of all, he has ELITE physical tools. Like, the top 1% of all QB prospects ever. On top of that, he's a great leader, played in a pro style scheme, and does the little things (keeping eyes downfield, stepping into his throws, manipulating the pocket) well. Every one of his traits is tied to sloppiness, which can be coached out. He's playing with a bunch of scrubs, which makes him look a lot worse than he actually is. He's running for his life every snap, trying to find someone open when nobody ever is. Oh, and his most impressive trait is his ability to zip the football into tight spots. He can complete passes that no other QB can because of the raw arm talent. DB's that are right behind the WR can't close the window because of the rocket that he possesses. He takes care of the football for the most part, especially given the utter chaos that surrounded him every single week. He's tough as nails.

His flaws are his accuracy and anticipation. Those are traits he can improve on. In fact, he did improve his accuracy and touch quite a bit despite people pointing at his completion percentage. He had to throw a ton of passes into the dirt and out of bounds during his college career. He didn't have a lot of bubble screens or hitch routes to eat up zone coverage. He played in a deep-shot offense that asked him to hit crosses off of play action deep down the field. Your completion percentage is going to suffer as a result.

The other guys listed had nowhere near the physical talent, nor the polish as pro style passers, nor the toughness and leadership ability.

Don't be silly. Allen is flawed for sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can find Josh Allen's outside of the 1st round in typical draft classes.

I mean, you pretty much can. Statues with cannons for an arm but no accuracy aren't really rare.

[jrry32]

18 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

I mean, you pretty much can. Statues with cannons for an arm but no accuracy aren't really rare.

Allen is athletic. He's right that guys like him usually go high in the Draft, but those are also the type of guys who have historically not panned out.

[BAConrad]

2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Allen is athletic. He's right that guys like him usually go high in the Draft, but those are also the type of guys who have historically not panned out.

This.

The Allen hype is hilarious.

I mean you'd think by now most people who closely follow the NFL would know that Allen has a really really small chance to be even average. 

Like, who cares now about a "cannon" arm? Allen can throw it hard and far! Cool. He also cant accurately throw the ball at all. How many times does even , say, Aaron Rodgers, throw the ball 50+ yards in the air a season? A few maybe? 

I dont understand why people act like its so easy to just coach these QBs up. You cant teach accuracy to someone like Allen who is just so below the bar. 

I saw a tweet IDR who from but a reporter/writer and it was saying that Allen's comp% dating back to junior high as a QB has been around 50% every single year. 

[khaosoy]

5 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

First of all, he has ELITE physical tools. Like, the top 1% of all QB prospects ever. On top of that, he's a great leader, played in a pro style scheme, and does the little things (keeping eyes downfield, stepping into his throws, manipulating the pocket) well. Every one of his traits is tied to sloppiness, which can be coached out. He's playing with a bunch of scrubs, which makes him look a lot worse than he actually is. He's running for his life every snap, trying to find someone open when nobody ever is. Oh, and his most impressive trait is his ability to zip the football into tight spots. He can complete passes that no other QB can because of the raw arm talent. DB's that are right behind the WR can't close the window because of the rocket that he possesses. He takes care of the football for the most part, especially given the utter chaos that surrounded him every single week. He's tough as nails.

His flaws are his accuracy and anticipation. Those are traits he can improve on. In fact, he did improve his accuracy and touch quite a bit despite people pointing at his completion percentage. He had to throw a ton of passes into the dirt and out of bounds during his college career. He didn't have a lot of bubble screens or hitch routes to eat up zone coverage. He played in a deep-shot offense that asked him to hit crosses off of play action deep down the field. Your completion percentage is going to suffer as a result.

 

The other guys listed had nowhere near the physical talent, nor the polish as pro style passers, nor the toughness and leadership ability.

 

Don't be silly. Allen is flawed for sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can find Josh Allen's outside of the 1st round in typical draft classes.

2

Actually, these two traits, especially the 2nd are often times some of the most difficult to improve on which is why prospects with Allen's profile more often than not fail. 

 

 

[JaguarCrazy2832]

56 minutes ago, khaosoy said:

Actually, these two traits, especially the 2nd are often times some of the most difficult to improve on which is why prospects with Allen's profile more often than not fail. 

 

 

Exactly. This isnt Madden just because you’re a 4th year QB doesnt mean his accuracy goes from 65 to 80. Re-teaching what someone has done their whole QB life isnt easy and even when you fix it in practice they often revert back to their old ways. Also who has ever improved on their anticipation after being drafted?

[Superman(DH23)]

53 minutes ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Exactly. This isnt Madden just because you’re a 4th year QB doesnt mean his accuracy goes from 65 to 80. Re-teaching what someone has done their whole QB life isnt easy and even when you fix it in practice they often revert back to their old ways. Also who has ever improved on their anticipation after being drafted?

Like literally every qb ever has to improve their anticipation to be able to succeed in the nfl.  And people acting like Allen is widely inaccurate are not watching Allen play.  With Allen its real simple if hes feet are right the ball is perfectly placed with touch, timing, accuracy.  If his feet are a mess the ball is a mess.  Its why his accuracy when on the move is better than in a clean pocket. (Which btw didnt happen ever at Wyoming)  Its only 1 game, and really only 1 qtr and a half, but at the senior bowl he went 9/13 (69%) 180 yards, 2 TDs (both incredible touch passes).  Its the only time we have seen him play with real talent both around him and across from him and he definitely looked the part of a top 10 prospect.  

[BleedTheClock]

8 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

I mean, you pretty much can. Statues with cannons for an arm but no accuracy aren't really rare.

Yikes...statue? Looks like we found one of the many people that have never watched Josh Allen play the game, yet, have strong opinions on why he won't be successful.

[BleedTheClock]

1 hour ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Like literally every qb ever has to improve their anticipation to be able to succeed in the nfl.  And people acting like Allen is widely inaccurate are not watching Allen play.  With Allen its real simple if hes feet are right the ball is perfectly placed with touch, timing, accuracy.  If his feet are a mess the ball is a mess.  Its why his accuracy when on the move is better than in a clean pocket. (Which btw didnt happen ever at Wyoming)  Its only 1 game, and really only 1 qtr and a half, but at the senior bowl he went 9/13 (69%) 180 yards, 2 TDs (both incredible touch passes).  Its the only time we have seen him play with real talent both around him and across from him and he definitely looked the part of a top 10 prospect.  

Pretty much exactly this. He gets way too much hate. Every one of the other QB prospects would have the same issues if they played at Wyoming with that supporting cast.

He needs to set his feet and get more reps playing with a clean pocket. Every snap was essentially a broken play in that offense given the horrid state of that OL and the inability for any WR to win early on their routes. Josh Allen does get a little bit of a pass because it's extremely difficult to critique a player who has zero talent around him. Especially at the QB position.

[Soko]

9 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

He didn't have a lot of bubble screens or hitch routes to eat up zone coverage. He played in a deep-shot offense that asked him to hit crosses off of play action deep down the field. Your completion percentage is going to suffer as a result.

Yet he threw a higher percentage of throws than Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold...

[BleedTheClock]

3 hours ago, khaosoy said:

Actually, these two traits, especially the 2nd are often times some of the most difficult to improve on which is why prospects with Allen's profile more often than not fail. 

These aren't easy things to fix, but the team that drafts him is going to put him into a situation where that's all he has to work on for a while. He's going to go in the top 5. None of the teams picking in the top 5 will start him right away unless Buffalo trades for him. He'll have time to iron out his mechanical flaws.

 

2 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Exactly. This isnt Madden just because you’re a 4th year QB doesnt mean his accuracy goes from 65 to 80. Re-teaching what someone has done their whole QB life isnt easy and even when you fix it in practice they often revert back to their old ways. Also who has ever improved on their anticipation after being drafted?

Improving on anticipation? There are too many people to even list. 90% of QB's improve on this with increased repetition and comfortability with his WR's. Josh Allen has never been comfortable with his WR's because they suck, are never open, and don't work back to the football when he's running for his life. Tough to develop synergy and trust with WR's that aren't worthy of your trust.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Like literally every qb ever has to improve their anticipation to be able to succeed in the nfl.  And people acting like Allen is widely inaccurate are not watching Allen play.  With Allen its real simple if hes feet are right the ball is perfectly placed with touch, timing, accuracy.  If his feet are a mess the ball is a mess.  Its why his accuracy when on the move is better than in a clean pocket. (Which btw didnt happen ever at Wyoming)  Its only 1 game, and really only 1 qtr and a half, but at the senior bowl he went 9/13 (69%) 180 yards, 2 TDs (both incredible touch passes).  Its the only time we have seen him play with real talent both around him and across from him and he definitely looked the part of a top 10 prospect.  

There's a huge difference between improving a skill you've consistently displayed and improving a skill you have not. 

[BleedTheClock]

2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Yet he threw a higher percentage of throws than Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold...

So that stat is a real thing. However, he doesn't throw a bunch of bubble screens. He throws a lot of quick stuff to his TE on stick routes, but these aren't cheap completions against vanilla zones that you see against spread teams. Most teams go man-up on Wyoming and bring heavy pressure. Very few teams ran man coverage against Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold because it's extremely difficult to do against a spread attack. There were much easier and clearer throwing lanes for all of those QB's listed. I don't even see how you could argue that.

Josh Allen has seen more of what simulates NFL offense/defense than any of the other QB's in this class. There will be significantly less of a learning curve for him as a passer than there will be for the others. Whether or not he can improve his footwork consistency is one thing, but I'm not at all worried about how he handles NFL defenses. This is a legitimate concern for the other QB prospects that I don't have with Josh.

 

I know it seems like I'm Josh Allen's biggest supporter, but I'd be salty if the Browns took him at #1. Sam Darnold is the best QB in this draft class to me. And Baker/Rosen are safer than Allen. But people dropping this "4th round" garbage takes are hilarious. It's blatantly obvious who has watched the film on Allen and who is going along with popular and false narratives based around stupid player comparisons.

[Superman(DH23)]

Just now, jrry32 said:

There's a huge difference between improving a skill you've consistently displayed and improving a skill you have not. 

Jrry big armed qbs rarely throw with anticipation in college for the simple fact that they dont have to.  Thats what people dont get about the big arm, its not about how far you can throw, its about how tight the window can be for you to throw into.  Allen simply has an ability to put the ball in spots the other qbs in this draft cant.