Draft Discussion 3.0

[Aztec Hammer]

7 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Darnold is Wilson now? Y'all are crazy. Darnold is Carr/Bradford imo which isn't close to Wilson. Wilson makes a lot happen because he is a threat to run. Do you guys watch Wilson play? None of the top 3 bring what Wilson does. Sorry. Jackson if he had the accuracy of the top 3 is a Wilson comparison.

Have you watched Darnold play? He is nothing like Bradford, and not particularly like Carr either. Jackson is also not particularly like Wilson. Just because they are both fast it doesn't make them similar. They use their speed and play QB in entirely different styles.

Wilson is a comparison I have used for Darnold before and it seems fairly evident for anyone that could look beyond the fact that physically they look nothing alike.

- They have very similar releases.

- They are both proficient in the pocket but do their biggest damage getting out of the pocket and hitting off structure plays.

- They both have elite first step avoidance of free rushers and overall high level rush evasion skills.

- They both have a strong instinctual element that fuels the best parts of their game.

[Aztec Hammer]

I pretty much just repeated what Mind Character wrote. Never mind.

I'll add one more thing. Darnold is one of the harder direct comparisons I've had. I find he has an eclectic mix of skills that are spread across many players. It's easier to say he has shades of many players than all of one.

[Aztec Hammer]

 

[Thomas5737]

5 hours ago, Aztec Hammer said:

Jackson is also not particularly like Wilson. Just because they are both fast it doesn't make them similar. They use their speed and play QB in entirely different styles.

They aren't similar besides that NFL defenses would have to actually game plan against them running, unlike Darnold. Same with RGIII, Steve Young, Johnny Manziel and guys that are actually speed guys or very quick and can make NFL defenses miss beyond the LOS. That gives them an extra advantage because they usually are going to have a spy which opens things up. You still have to be a good passer to make it which RGIII turned out to struggle with and Jackson probably will too. It is just too big of a factor to make it a legit comparison.

You can compare Darnold to Wilson minus the threat to run that is fine but it is still a pretty big factor within the passing game.

[Aztec Hammer]

27 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

They aren't similar besides that NFL defenses would have to actually game plan against them running, unlike Darnold. Same with RGIII, Steve Young, Johnny Manziel and guys that are actually speed guys or very quick and can make NFL defenses miss beyond the LOS. That gives them an extra advantage because they usually are going to have a spy which opens things up. You still have to be a good passer to make it which RGIII turned out to struggle with and Jackson probably will too. It is just too big of a factor to make it a legit comparison.

You can compare Darnold to Wilson minus the threat to run that is fine but it is still a pretty big factor within the passing game.

Pure speed QBs are fools gold as far as I'm concerned. You spy him, like you say, and force them to pass within structure and Jackson's sub 60% comes to the forefront.

Darnold won't be given a spy but don't mistake that for him not being able to run. And his is the better type of running. Running to pass. In the vein of how Rodgers, Luck, Wilson, Wentz do a lot of their damage. Steve Young falls more into this set than the RG3, Vick set.

I agree with you that Jackson will fall more into the being exposed as too inconsistent of a passer like RG3 and many other superb speed guys. No matter how rapid you are, the NFL will make you have to pass more so sooner rather than later.

Darnold isn't going to time close to Wilson, that much is certain. But he is athletic, in a more suitable way for NFL QB than say an RG3. I've seen him keep the ball and run for 30+ gains. But that's rare. I've seen a lot more the ability to move athletically inside and outside the pocket and keep his eyes downfield to make a great play. And having the ability to run for first downs when the play breaks down is really nice. He did that against Ohio State a couple of times, and has done it on critical 3rd and 4th downs against Stanford, Utah, UCLA etc.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Athletically Darnold is pretty similar to Kizer IMO.  Bigger guy who moves very well for his size.  Can rip off some 20+ yard runs, but won’t be a regular thing. Not going to outrun anyone, but mobile enough to burn the defense if they don’t respect him.

Darnold’s athleticm is really underrated by some here.

[Aztec Hammer]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Athletically Darnold is pretty similar to Kizer IMO.  Bigger guy who moves very well for his size.  Can rip off some 20+ yard runs, but won’t be a regular thing. Not going to outrun anyone, but mobile enough to burn the defense if they don’t respect him.

Darnold’s athleticm is really underrated by some here.

Good comp. Where I think they differ athletically is that Darnold looks much more natural with it and uses it functionally to play QB. Kizer has always appeared quite clunky with it, at least to me.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Aztec Hammer said:

Good comp. Where I think they differ athletically is that Darnold looks much more natural with it and uses it functionally to play QB. Kizer has always appeared quite clunky with it, at least to me.

Agreed, Darnold is more natural, but they seem to have similar ability despite the fluidity/appearance.

[OhioG]

Where does everyone think Christian Kirk will go in the draft?

[BleedTheClock]

54 minutes ago, ohiogenius said:

Where does everyone think Christian Kirk will go in the draft?

Top 10 in R2.

[bruceb]

4 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Top 10 in R2.

I am seeing more and more mocks showing us taking him there.

[BleedTheClock]

Just now, bruceb said:

I am seeing more and more mocks showing us taking him there.

I wouldn't hate it. I just don't think we need Kirk when we already have Corey Coleman. We need a pure slot WR who knows how to run a full route tree. I want Anthony Miller in the 2nd round, but I wouldn't cry if we took Kirk as I think he's going to be a good player. A slightly slower and thicker Percy Harvin.

[Thomas5737]

3 hours ago, Aztec Hammer said:

Pure speed QBs are fools gold as far as I'm concerned. You spy him, like you say, and force them to pass within structure and Jackson's sub 60% comes to the forefront.

Darnold won't be given a spy but don't mistake that for him not being able to run. And his is the better type of running. Running to pass. In the vein of how Rodgers, Luck, Wilson, Wentz do a lot of their damage. Steve Young falls more into this set than the RG3, Vick set.

I agree with you that Jackson will fall more into the being exposed as too inconsistent of a passer like RG3 and many other superb speed guys. No matter how rapid you are, the NFL will make you have to pass more so sooner rather than later.

Darnold isn't going to time close to Wilson, that much is certain. But he is athletic, in a more suitable way for NFL QB than say an RG3. I've seen him keep the ball and run for 30+ gains. But that's rare. I've seen a lot more the ability to move athletically inside and outside the pocket and keep his eyes downfield to make a great play. And having the ability to run for first downs when the play breaks down is really nice. He did that against Ohio State a couple of times, and has done it on critical 3rd and 4th downs against Stanford, Utah, UCLA etc.

Pure speed at QB means nothing or very little unless you are also a good passer. That's when it changes. If Wilson and Darnold are the exact same passer and both move well behind the LOS there is still a big difference in what their results passing should be if Wilson is getting 500 yards rushing per year and Darnold is at 150. One may lead their team in rushing and the other just takes what is given like a lot of mobile but not running QBs. I just can't compare a QB who will be a running QB with a mobile QB. You can offer similarities bu Wilson without the threat to run for positive yards isn't Wilson. He can still be good but you're playing against 11 men instead of 10.5 and that is a pretty big difference. Speed only means so much anyway it is more about running ability. If you are slow but are quick and shifty you are more of a threat than a fast straight line runner. Otherwise WRs would be playing RB.

[roger murdock]

The best Darnold comparison is Romo IMO. 

[TheeRealDeal]

Derrick Kindred hasn't played well for long enough for anyone to give up a 2nd round pick. That being said I wouldn't trade him for anything less. He was a very quality player and at worse is going to be a rock solid contributor. He is young, talented and cheap. Trading away talent just to do it is why teams cannot get over the hump. Falling in love with unproven college talent is the worst thing that can happen to the Browns right now. 

If the Eagles are in fact interested in Derrick Kindred then I would say my minimum would be Malcolm Jenkins and a 2019 3rd. They need to create cap room and Jenkins would help us greatly with veteran leadership in a position we need badly. They do not have a 4th this year so we get an upgrade in the future pick.