bruceb Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, DizzyDean said: Its called a project, someone on here last year called Kizer just that... now who was that? :-) I am not saying Kizer can't be fixed, although given the trauma that he experienced here it will be an uphill battle for sure. That is why you let him sit and learn, and work on his deficiencies. Again, not a complicated thought process. And also not one with a high probability of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, DizzyDean said: I am not saying Kizer can't be fixed, although given the trauma that he experienced here it will be an uphill battle for sure What trauma is that? The red zone interceptions or the fumbles? Tyrod was sacked 10 more times than Kizer last year. Alex Smith, Tom Brady, Matthew Stafford, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Josh McCown, Cam Newton and Andy Dalton all were sacked more than Kizer. I think Kizer had it really easy for a rookie QB on an 0-16 team. Yeah he didn't have great targets or good coaching but he was protected pretty well and played enough that the game should have started coming to him a little bit but there was no progression. He certainly didn't get "broken" not that I believe that matters anyway. If you will break at 21 you will break at 25, unless you physically get broken. You aren't going to break mentally unless you are capable of breaking mentally and that is going to happen sooner than later with any QB who can't handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, NateDawg said: Anyone else remember the time Hue said he didn’t hire an OC, because he didn’t want to set a coordinator up for failure? #truthteller But then proceeded to fire half of the offensive staff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I still think it was a great draft. Facts 21 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’m not hyping Dorsey at all, but yes, fire Hue. Your ability to defend a 1-31 with the level of smugness you post with is honestly the most adorable damned thing I’ve seen in a long time. He’s been awful Mind, absolutely awful, and no matter how much lipstick you try to smear on that pig, that’s a fact at this point. Not that you'll care, read it, or we haven't had this debate a thousand times already. Offense QB 2016: late-3rd Rookie QB Cody Kessler; 2017 2nd round Rookie QB Deshone Kizer RB 2016/2017: Isaiah Crowell/ Duke Johnson WR 2016: Rookie Corey Coleman, Rookie Ricardo Louis, Terrelle Pryor; 2017 Kenny Britt, Ricardo Louis, Higgins/UFAs/Castoffs/&JG/CC for a few games TE 2016: Gary "runs in mud" Barnidge (Cut and not wanted by another team); 2017 Rookie David Njoku OL 2016: Buttcheeks with some injuries; 2017 Good OL play Now, get out there and score us some points and win some games!!!! Defense: I'll save you some time 2016: Buttcheeks with personnel playing out of position (43 players playing 34); 2017 (Slightly better than Butt cheeks, but rookie starters at critical positons and injury. The point I always make: 1. Hue's been really really bad a lot, other coaches are bad a lot and their media covers it, but the team's talent and experience wash away the sins of week to week mistakes by players and coaches in the sweet bliss of winning 2. Youngest 2 teams in NFL history with QBs starting for them that were at best considered the 4th best in the draft by league draft day consensus. 3. There's no difference between 1-31 and 6-26 as we were close to winning multiple games across the years but done in due often things outside of positional coaches or HC control when youths derp it up (Nassib lining up offsides, catastrophic INT, Missed field goals end of game, late KO return yards allowed etc....) 4. Almost every coach put in the same situation would have experienced epic and historical losing. 5. This will be the first year we can really evaluate players and coaches. 6. Hue made tons of mistakes, but his proven track record of winning and being a great coach before means that it is not a certainty that he is complete trash like everyone thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Hue made tons of mistakes, but his proven track record of winning and being a great coach before means that it is not a certainty that he is complete trash like everyone thinks. I must have missed this. Especially the "proven track record of winning" and "being a great coach before" parts. He threw his players under the bus in OAK, and torpedoed the team with his desperate trade for Palmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: But then proceeded to fire half of the offensive staff... Every year unless a team wins the superbowl or makes a long run into the playoffs, coaches are fired....don't you follow the league. There are fit issues, sometimes guys get hired that don't work out being what a person expects... Sometimes the person a HC wanted all along comes available. It's better to look at the Why behind the firing than just think oh there goes another coach firing someone. 2016: We overhauled our defensive coaching group and a young QB coach left for greener pastures in college 2017: David Lee was fired after 1 year in favor of a respected positional coach that the HC had a great relationship with Kirby Wilson and Hue were close friends in high school and Kirby took the job thinking one day he'd get the chance to call the plays...when he saw he wouldn't be the guy conflict and the relationship between Hue and Kirby soured. Kirby was replaced by a hand picked choice by our new OC Al Saunders retired... No one else on the staff was fired. Chris Tabor wanted a new start.. ------ Our turnover was no different than other losing teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 He needs to jump in that f****************** lake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: Every year unless a team wins the superbowl or makes a long run into the playoffs, coaches are fired....don't you follow the league. The who is Hue thinking he’s protecting? 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: 2016: We overhauled our defensive coaching group and a young QB coach left for greener pastures in college Greener pastures of college? Surely you jest... 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: 2017: David Lee was fired after 1 year That’s what I said, he was fired after one year. Wouldn’t the guy who wanted to “protect the OC” want to protect the other coaches? 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: Kirby Wilson was fired. FIFY 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: Kirby was replaced by a hand picked choice by our new OC Because Kirby was fire. 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: Al Saunders retired... No he didn’t, he was just replaced as a position coach. 1 minute ago, Mind Character said: No one else on the staff was fired. Seems like a lot for a guy apparently hell bent on protecting his staff, no? Look, everything you’re saying is accurate, guys get fired, we all get that. The issue is that Hue can’t have it both ways. You can’t say you didn’t hire a coach “to protect them” and then fire other dudes for the exact thing you didn’t want an OC to get fired for. It’s horsesht. He didn’t hire an OC because he wanted to call plays and he thought he was better at it than the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 minute ago, bruceb said: I must have missed this. Especially the "proven track record of winning" and "being a great coach before" parts. He threw his players under the bus in OAK, and torpedoed the team with his desperate trade for Palmer. Yeah I guess you did miss it there. The Raiders gave up a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick for a QB that went on to play at a high level for 5 years after that despite not having the best offense around him in Arizona while alos being derailed in a few of those years by injury and regressing at the end. Oakland's 1st round pick was mid toward the second half of the round, and QBs like that go for a lot of compensation as Carson wasn't a starter like Jimmy G that only had a handful of games but had a proven track record of high QB play. Giving up those 2 picks certainly didn't derail the Raiders, but their terrible cap management, player acquisition, and drafting decisions did in the years before Hue was the coach and some time after. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--pump-the-brakes--raiders--trade-for-carson-palmer-wasn-t-nearly-as-bad-as-some-claim-140818102.html The following is the history I considered and basis of which I form my opinion: On 1/19/2018 at 6:50 PM, Mind Character said: Like I keep saying...it's okay to hate Hue and believe he's incompetent. You can find real evidence to support that belief, but the evidence your using actually doesn't support your claim at all. In fact, it makes the opposite claim, and makes you sound totally uninformed making claims out of confirmation bias. But you just can't change history so that it confirms your belief. Most of what you're saying just simply isn't true and doesn't match quantitative or qualitative evidence. ------------- Oakland: You obviously didn't follow the Raiders 2010-2011 that intently and are revising the Oakland experience to fit your belief on Hue resulting in ignoring objective facts. The Raiders offense that ranked 30th the year before Hue became OC became the 7th ranked rushing defense; and the 18th ranked passing offense with Jason Campbell at QB and the potent star-studded receiving core of Jacoby Ford, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Louis Murphy, and Zach Miller. Due to some inefficiencies on third down, various DVOA computations put that offense anywhere from 11th to 23rd when accounting for situational efficiency. Qualitatively, people in Oakland (sports writers, media, personnel execs) and around the league thought Hue made chicken salad out of sh*t and maximized a retread in Jason Campbell with a collection of subpar receiving talent. He then gets the HC job due to his offensive efforts. The team gets off to an unexpected hot 7-4 start despite losing their best offensive player (TE Zach Miller) to free agency in the offseason replacing him with JAG TE Kevin Boss. The offense also loses their now best player (Darren Mcfadden) for the season after game 7 and their starting QB (Jason Campbell) being lost for the season after the 6th week. The Raiders bring in Carson Palmer out of retirement off the couch midseason via trade who struggles down the stretch, but the offense with RB Michael Bush, TE Kevin Boss, rookie WR Denarius Moore, and JAG WR Derrius Heyward-Bey STILL reaches as high as # 3 in DVOA Offensive Efficiency, but loses steam after losing Mcfadden ending the season ranked anywhere from 8th-14th in Offensive Efficiency depending on the computation. With Hue as OC or HC, the raiders with a below average talent team were 16-16 with top half of the league offenses. They went 1-4 in their last 5 games mostly due to defensive struggles. Hue had an infamous final press conference and it was game over. After he left, in 3 seasons, the Raiders went 8-28 causing fans to create a petition and website for Mark Davis to rehire Hue Jackson. So, the claim that he regressed the Raiders is unfounded. ----------------------------- Atlanta Falcons: To use this season as an example of Hue's incompetence is laughable as again there's a lot better evidence elsewhere. The infamous HC Bobby Petrino IN-SEASON resignation after 13 games leave a note in the locker room saying goodbye season. This was the craziest season whereby Michael Vick went to prison for dogfighting sending shock waves through the organization as he was their whole offense. And I sh*t-you not they tried to replace Michael Vick who then was at the height of his powers with the holy retread triumvirate JOEY HARRINGTON, CHRIS REDMAN, & BYRON LEFTWHICH....LOL. Warrick Dunn was in his last year and the offense was a shell of itself with players having public blowups with the Head Coach. They were lucky to win 4 games. ---------------- Cincinnati: The Offense went from 17th having injuries to AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Kevin Zeitler, Jermaine Gresham (We'd love to have the 17th offense) To the # 2 Offense in Offensive Efficiency in the entire league. They were number 1 in most metrics despite being # 2 in overall efficiency. That is not a good offense, that is a special offense firing on all cylinders. --------------- Baltimore: Ozzie Newsome deeming Hue "teaching worth its weight in gold" and John Harbaugh calling Hue's hire "...a game changer." Harbaugh went on to say "Nobody has more knowledge or has had more success with developing rookie quarterbacks than Hue Jackson has had as a coach. We have seen it firsthand." Flacco would say " He allows you to go out there and play fast, and free, and wants you to go out there and play with emotion and let it all go. I think that his coaching style and his offensive philosophy allows the quarterback to do that." Statistically even to this point...Flacco had one of his best season as a young player nonetheless. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE BEST FIRE HUE EVIDENCE THAT EXISTS: Is this year. The 2017 season. Not his time with the Raiders, Falcons, Bengals, or Ravens. Not the RG3 nonguaranteed contract gamble on a previous QB1, not wanting Goff over Wentz, not going 1-15 in 2016 with rookie 4th round pick Cody Kessler with Cam Erving, Greco, and Austin Pazstor. Not that he wanted Mahomes, Trubisky, and Malik Hooker over Deshaun Watson, but still texted him and would've to select Deshaun over trading down. The Best Evidence is the case of Deshone Kizer, situational football mismanagement, allowing a year of frustrations to boil over to the point where he even allowed others to perceive that he was blaming the talent of the roster on the losing, and making short sighted decisions to win now that didn't fit the developmental plan of a young QB. Benching Deshone Kizer was not bad as every position on the field gets benched/rookie or not for consecutive catastrophic play. However, it's hard to argue that Kizer wasn't maximized given the results that the coaching on Accuracy, footwork, situational football, and turnovers did not take root. That all can't be blamed on Kizer the rookie QB, and Hue had a major part in that. Ultimately, if the coach's coaching doesn't take root and manifest in the play of the player then the coach deserves responsibility. It does make sense that after going 1-15 that it was hard to watch the redzone and catastrophic INTs of Kizer in 3 straight games. So, when making a fire Hue claim, look no further than this year. Yeah...I remember the story vividly...everyone does. That's why I said this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDean Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 48 minutes ago, bruceb said: And also not one with a high probability of success. Seemed to work ok for Aaron Rodgers. :-) Matt Shaub ended up having a very solid career. AJ McCarron is poised to do it as well. Does it always work? Of course not. But it does sometimes. Drafting a sure fire stud doesn't always work either, see Jamarcus Russell, thus, not an exact science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, mistakey said: He needs to jump in that f****************** lake That was nothing more than lip service. Dude needed to jump in that lake Jan 1st, my man’s gonna wait till training camp at this rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheeRealDeal Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 The Jason McCourty move was purely an ego move after what he said about Hue, Greg and Dorsey ripping the team in every interview. He was far from great but he was on a 3 million dollar deal that was set to expire at the end of the year. He was only 30 which is hardly a dinosaur in the NFL. At the very worst the guy ends up getting buried on the depth chart or you cut him at final cuts. Now because this is football after all when someone goes down in camp or early in the season we will be signing some burger flipper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Yeah I guess you did miss it there. The Raiders gave up a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick for a QB that went on to play at a high level for 5 years after that despite not having the best offense around him in Arizona while alos being derailed in a few of those years by injury and regressing at the end. Oakland's 1st round pick was mid toward the second half of the round, and QBs like that go for a lot of compensation as Carson wasn't a starter like Jimmy G that only had a handful of games but had a proven track record of high QB play. Giving up those 2 picks certainly didn't derail the Raiders, but their terrible cap management, player acquisition, and drafting decisions did in the years before Hue was the coach and some time after. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--pump-the-brakes--raiders--trade-for-carson-palmer-wasn-t-nearly-as-bad-as-some-claim-140818102.html The following is the history I considered and basis of which I form my opinion: Your apologia for Hueballl is not convincing. Lot's of words to portray him well but no substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Greener pastures of college? Surely you jest... Pep wanted to be a head coach...he saw the ability to be Assistant HC/OC at such a young age in the Big Ten with Harbaugh and Michigan as his fastest route and certainly faster and easier to have success than hitching his star to a trade down and accumulate strategy, I don't even get to call the plays, autrocity of a roster in 2016 8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Because Kirby was fire. But you didn't address why he was fired. He either had to be hired as OC or their relationship was untenable going forward. Surely you didn't want Hue to hire Kirby over Todd Haley, did you? 8 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: No he didn’t, he was just replaced as a position coach. Oh yeah...the 71 year old guy after 1-31 was chomping at the bit to come back to coach Ricardo, Gordon, and Coleman especially after they got rid of his pet project Terrelle Pryor that he thought "will be a pro bowler and is one the players in all my time that I'm not only close and we talk every day, but watching his development is a sight to see." Hue canned him against his will and forced him into the exile of being paid close to what he was before but now getting to be warm on Sundays, mentor young players, not grind every week like a young rising coach... Seriously..you believe that...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, DizzyDean said: Seemed to work ok for Aaron Rodgers. :-) Matt Shaub ended up having a very solid career. AJ McCarron is poised to do it as well. Does it always work? Of course not. But it does sometimes. Drafting a sure fire stud doesn't always work either, see Jamarcus Russell, thus, not an exact science. I might be mistaken but I do not believe that any of them, and especially Rodgers, had decision and accuracy issues in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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