Who do you choose at 4? (No trade down option)

[MistaBohmbastic]

If I'm making the pick, gimme Ward or Minkah. 

I think it'll be Chubb, but at pick 4, I truly believe we're not getting the bang for our buck that we should. I'm with BleedTheClock here. Chubb can be above average, but let's be honest, he's nothing spectacular. Good technique, I think Landry will be the better pro when it's all said and done.

I won't be upset with Chubb, but I'm not gonna be through the roof ecstatic either. At 4, I really wish we could do better than that.

[buckeyesNut0623]

On 4/4/2018 at 9:45 PM, BleedTheClock said:

Barkley has significant limitations? I don't get this. If his limitations are significant, then every draft prospect in this class must have even more significant limitations. 99.9% of people that actually do their homework have Barkley as either #1 or #2 in this class (Nelson could be 1). I don't think Barkley has any real limitations. He's not a Leonard Fournette truck between the tackles, but consider this: He dominated by bouncing things outside because his OL was a hodge podge of dog poop. He's a big dude that isn't afraid of contact. The only thing people can critique him on is the fact that there's not a whole lot of tape of him running inside. But if you watch the tape, their OL is getting crushed and he has to bounce out....which he does successfully most of the time. I can't fault him for bouncing things in college. It remains to be seen what he'll do behind a good interior OL that can actually give him creases to run in up the gut. Going back to his freshman season, Penn State's OL was much better. Barkley was awesome running between the tackles and getting those grind-it-out yards. When their OL fell off a cliff and their passing game started to dwindle as well, teams swarmed the middle and forced Barkley to bounce. Which he did. To the tune of gigantic heisman candidate numbers.

If Barkley has significant limitations, then every RB prospect ever had significant limitations.

 

 

Oh, and I don't think this is a bad luck draft class. It's bad luck of Barkley is gone, but even if that happens, we are still in a prime position to trade down and snag a great player at a position of need (Ward/Vea/James). Hell, I'd be fine with Ward at #4 to be honest. I think he's a lockdown corner. Does he fit our scheme? No, but our scheme probably won't be our scheme for long if Hue Jackson doesn't win at least 7 of his games this year.

My top 5 players in the draft are:

1. Quinton Nelson OG (99)----highest grade I've given out ever.

2. Saquon Barkley RB (97)----highest grade I've given a RB ever (didn't formally evaluate AP, but he'd probably have been close or above this)

3. Denzel Ward CB (89)

4. Derwin James FS (88)

5. Vita Vea NT (87)

 

We are going to have access to probably all 5 of these players at pick #4 and could realistically trade with the Bills and have access to 1-2 of them at pick #12. I think we're in a great spot.

I would make a argument that RB is just not worth a #4 pick. They don't have a very long shelf life and in the 1st round they are not a good value. Imho and opinions are like buttholes, everyone has got one. Just sayin

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, buckeyesNut0623 said:

I would make a argument that RB is just not worth a #4 pick. They don't have a very long shelf life and in the 1st round they are not a good value. Imho and opinions are like buttholes, everyone has got one. Just sayin

Eff that, double down, I’m with ya.

No need to take a RB at 4.

[MistaBohmbastic]

4 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Eff that, double down, I’m with ya.

No need to take a RB at 4.

Here's my reason for not fully accepting this philosophy though:

For one, Chubb's ceiling is truly nothing spectacular. The guys has an above average football IQ, phenomenal technique and balance, as well as a knack for his position. BUT, his capabilities cap out at above average. He won't ever become that elite pass rusher that Garrett could become. Let's face it, this class of pass rushers is nothing to brag about, and that's the only reason we're considering him.

I think a guy like Minkah has to be considered at 4 as well. He's a special talent, but he too is not really valued as a top 4 guy. Still, I think the impact he could make here warrants consideration.

Now look at Barkley...In one of the deepest running back classes we have seen, Saquon is far and away THE GUY. Like, it's just known at this point. He truly is a rare talent. Yeah, he's got flaws. He's not your traditional tailback. But he's the kinda guy that intimidates opposing defenses because he's so versatile, and a threat in all facets. Charley Casserlie called into the show I was producing earlier, and he essentially called Saquon a better LaDanian Tomlinson. Whether that's true or not, I've really escalated my research on him beyond the film and basic overviews because that statement really left me taken aback. 

The primary reason that a RB is valued so much less than other positions is that they have about a 4-5 year shelf life before their prime passes, yes?

That's hard to ignore, but so are his natural, rare talents. I guess what I'm getting at is that with this #4 pick, after having addressed the QB position, you SHOULD be going BPA. Chubb is by no means that player. Minkah? Perhaps. But Saquon? ABSOLUTELY. And that's why I am so freaking torn here.

BRING ON THIS FRIGGIN DRAFT ALREADY

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

7 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Here's my reason for not fully accepting this philosophy though:

For one, Chubb's ceiling is truly nothing spectacular. The guys has an above average football IQ, phenomenal technique and balance, as well as a knack for his position. BUT, his capabilities cap out at above average. He won't ever become that elite pass rusher that Garrett could become. Let's face it, this class of pass rushers is nothing to brag about, and that's the only reason we're considering him.

I think a guy like Minkah has to be considered at 4 as well. He's a special talent, but he too is not really valued as a top 4 guy. Still, I think the impact he could make here warrants consideration.

I agreed, hence my desire to trade down.

7 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

Now look at Barkley...In one of the deepest running back classes we have seen, Saquon is far and away THE GUY. Like, it's just known at this point. He truly is a rare talent. Yeah, he's got flaws. He's not your traditional tailback. But he's the kinda guy that intimidates opposing defenses because he's so versatile, and a threat in all facets. Charley Casserlie called into the show I was producing earlier, and he essentially called Saquon a better LaDanian Tomlinson. Whether that's true or not, I've really escalated my research on him beyond the film and basic overviews because that statement really left me taken aback. 

And the guy we hired as a consultant didn’t like him as much and Guice.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/04/scot-mccloughan-preferred-derrius-guice-to-saquon-barkley/

 

7 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

The primary reason that a RB is valued so much less than other positions is that they have about a 4-5 year shelf life before their prime passes, yes?

Partially. This pretty much covers my thoughts on the subject.

7 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

That's hard to ignore, but so are his natural, rare talents. I guess what I'm getting at is that with this #4 pick, after having addressed the QB position, you SHOULD be going BPA. Chubb is by no means that player. Minkah? Perhaps. But Saquon? ABSOLUTELY. And that's why I am so freaking torn here.

I’ve heard this before about a running back (every year almost tbh) and the last time this forum’s collective jeans were this tight was right about when this happened;

 

7 hours ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

BRING ON THIS FRIGGIN DRAFT ALREADY

Agreed.

 

[TheeRealDeal]

Barkley at #4 is toward the bottom of my wish list as well but lets quit acting like he is Trent Richardson in anyway shape or form. Sure some idiots out there were saying Richardson was the next greatest thing but it doesn't make it true. Trent Richardson was always stiff as a board. He was never going to succeed in the NFL as an athlete or playmaker in space. He was a bowling ball power back with good top end speed. The hope for him was a high end between the tackles power back like Eddie George. Anyway I know with half a brain for football knew this at the time and none thought he was worth a Top 5 pick. I like Fournette a lot more then Richardson but I feel much the same way about Fournette as do many of the same football people. He is a nice power back but ultimately will never be worth the 4th overall pick.

Saquan Barkley has the potential to be on a different level than those guys and there is no real argument about it. Hell he has a far greater upside than Zeke and even with Zeke the only thing that makes him worth the Top 5 selection is how great he is without the ball in his hands. He is a great blocker, route runner out of the backfield, play fakes you name it he does it exceedingly well.

Just because a bunch of bar room buddies tend to throw out the best running back since Adrian Peterson garbage every year doesn't make it true. Succeed or fail Saquan Barkley is 5 times the prospect Trent Richardson. He is superior to Fournette as well and though I wouldn't say he is better than Zeke due to Zeke's greatness off the ball he clearly has higher upside as a playmaker. And absolutely none of these schmucks are even close to the same level as Adrian Peterson as a prospect. I am so tired of that title of "best since"  for a different reason and that is because Peterson was truely out of this world and none of those guys since have been on that level.

All that being said it is still Trade down #1 and Bradley Chubb #2 for me before I'd even consider Barkley.

[Aztec Hammer]

Got to try and get that Buffalo 2019 1st. If the Giants don't trade out, it should be there for the taking at 4, along with their 12 and 22. Mccarron/Rookie is going to flop with that Bills roster next year. Will be enjoyable to keep an eye on them each week as they lead us to a Top 5 pick.

[Thomas5737]

11 hours ago, TheeRealDeal said:

Barkley at #4 is toward the bottom of my wish list as well but lets quit acting like he is Trent Richardson in anyway shape or form. Sure some idiots out there were saying Richardson was the next greatest thing but it doesn't make it true. Trent Richardson was always stiff as a board. He was never going to succeed in the NFL as an athlete or playmaker in space. He was a bowling ball power back with good top end speed. The hope for him was a high end between the tackles power back like Eddie George. Anyway I know with half a brain for football knew this at the time and none thought he was worth a Top 5 pick. I like Fournette a lot more then Richardson but I feel much the same way about Fournette as do many of the same football people. He is a nice power back but ultimately will never be worth the 4th overall pick.

Saquan Barkley has the potential to be on a different level than those guys and there is no real argument about it. Hell he has a far greater upside than Zeke and even with Zeke the only thing that makes him worth the Top 5 selection is how great he is without the ball in his hands. He is a great blocker, route runner out of the backfield, play fakes you name it he does it exceedingly well.

Just because a bunch of bar room buddies tend to throw out the best running back since Adrian Peterson garbage every year doesn't make it true. Succeed or fail Saquan Barkley is 5 times the prospect Trent Richardson. He is superior to Fournette as well and though I wouldn't say he is better than Zeke due to Zeke's greatness off the ball he clearly has higher upside as a playmaker. And absolutely none of these schmucks are even close to the same level as Adrian Peterson as a prospect. I am so tired of that title of "best since"  for a different reason and that is because Peterson was truely out of this world and none of those guys since have been on that level.

All that being said it is still Trade down #1 and Bradley Chubb #2 for me before I'd even consider Barkley.

Greatest post since Adrian Peterson.

You do know that missing on a prospect doesn't make one an idiot or give them less than half a brain though, right?

[bruceb]

53 minutes ago, Aztec Hammer said:

Got to try and get that Buffalo 2019 1st. If the Giants don't trade out, it should be there for the taking at 4, along with their 12 and 22. Mccarron/Rookie is going to flop with that Bills roster next year. Will be enjoyable to keep an eye on them each week as they lead us to a Top 5 pick.

Still think that this is too rich to hope for.

12, 2019 1st and some other lower round picks this and/or next year is more in the ballpark, imho.

[MistaBohmbastic]

12 hours ago, TheeRealDeal said:

Barkley at #4 is toward the bottom of my wish list as well but lets quit acting like he is Trent Richardson in anyway shape or form. Sure some idiots out there were saying Richardson was the next greatest thing but it doesn't make it true. Trent Richardson was always stiff as a board. He was never going to succeed in the NFL as an athlete or playmaker in space. He was a bowling ball power back with good top end speed. The hope for him was a high end between the tackles power back like Eddie George. Anyway I know with half a brain for football knew this at the time and none thought he was worth a Top 5 pick. I like Fournette a lot more then Richardson but I feel much the same way about Fournette as do many of the same football people. He is a nice power back but ultimately will never be worth the 4th overall pick.

Saquan Barkley has the potential to be on a different level than those guys and there is no real argument about it. Hell he has a far greater upside than Zeke and even with Zeke the only thing that makes him worth the Top 5 selection is how great he is without the ball in his hands. He is a great blocker, route runner out of the backfield, play fakes you name it he does it exceedingly well.

Just because a bunch of bar room buddies tend to throw out the best running back since Adrian Peterson garbage every year doesn't make it true. Succeed or fail Saquan Barkley is 5 times the prospect Trent Richardson. He is superior to Fournette as well and though I wouldn't say he is better than Zeke due to Zeke's greatness off the ball he clearly has higher upside as a playmaker. And absolutely none of these schmucks are even close to the same level as Adrian Peterson as a prospect. I am so tired of that title of "best since"  for a different reason and that is because Peterson was truely out of this world and none of those guys since have been on that level.

All that being said it is still Trade down #1 and Bradley Chubb #2 for me before I'd even consider Barkley.

I'ma have to disagree with you here. AP is a HOF'er. But to say Barkley's potential is nowhere near AP is absolute absurdity. These two aren't the same types of backs, for one. But BArkley's all around talent shouldn't be undervalued. IF there was ever a time to draft a RB this high, it is right now. Hell, you could make the case that Barkley is even more highly regarded coming out than AP was.

[Thomas5737]

26 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

I'ma have to disagree with you here. AP is a HOF'er. But to say Barkley's potential is nowhere near AP is absolute absurdity. These two aren't the same types of backs, for one. But BArkley's all around talent shouldn't be undervalued. IF there was ever a time to draft a RB this high, it is right now. Hell, you could make the case that Barkley is even more highly regarded coming out than AP was.

I think a lot of the AD prospect lore is revisionist history. He was a good prospect but couldn't stay healthy in college and was one dimensional. It was the most important dimension and he turned out to be great but being great in the NFL makes people remember him as a greater prospect than he was. If he was looked at as an all time great prospect he probably doesn't go 6th overall.

[MistaBohmbastic]

Just now, Thomas5737 said:

I think a lot of the AD prospect lore is revisionist history. He was a good prospect but couldn't stay healthy in college and was one dimensional. It was the most important dimension and he turned out to be great but being great in the NFL makes people remember him as a greater prospect than he was. If he was looked at as an all time great prospect he probably doesn't go 6th overall.

Well said. For those of you who were around these forums during that draft, it was my first offseason as a member of this forum (back in my ACDC_Rocks024 days)...and my Calvin Johnson mancrush. Man, I cried when the Lions took him. 

Anyways...you pretty much nailed it Thomas. It's like Michael Jordan vs. LeBron. People hold Jordan on the pedestal because the longer it's been, the bigger the legend grows.

There was discussion of Adrian being taken at 3, and the general consensus was that he'd be good without a doubt. Those injuries were a big holdup though. And he was kinda one dimensional, but more along the lines of your prototypical tailback. Saquon is like no RB currently playing in this league. I mean, he IS the FULL friggin package. The lone concern with him is something that can easily be addressed, unlike injuries (AP), unlike vision (Richardson), unlike pass catching, etc. You name it, he doesn't just excel at it, he DOMINATES. 

The only reason this decision isn't a certainty is because of the average RB shelf life, IMO. But having Hyde and Duke allows us to extend that, and cater to Barkley's strengths at the same time.

[Money]

You take Barkley. You take Chubb. End of discussion. By what of the tears for quarterback. You can slide back into the 1st on Jackson

[BleedTheClock]

25 minutes ago, Money said:

You take Barkley. You take Chubb. End of discussion. By what of the tears for quarterback. You can slide back into the 1st on Jackson

Or we could elect to take a good player that plays the QB position. Back again to call Browns fans idiots and ride the Lamar Jackson hype train right off a cliff?

[buno67]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:31 AM, MistaBohmbastic said:

For one, Chubb's ceiling is truly nothing spectacular. The guys has an above average football IQ, phenomenal technique and balance, as well as a knack for his position. BUT, his capabilities cap out at above average. He won't ever become that elite pass rusher that Garrett could become. Let's face it, this class of pass rushers is nothing to brag about, and that's the only reason we're considering him.

How do we know he has an above average football IQ? IMO you watch him play you don’t see him getting fooled by blocking schemes or false reads or rarely seen him make a wrong play on an option play. The dude is a little  cerebral with the things he does during games like the mind games he played with Bryant during the Clemson game. 

You say he had phenomenal technique and balance but yet think he can only be above average. Those are two damn good traits to have as a defensive linemen, specially as a DE. 

Do I see Chubb being a HoF player? Prolly not but do I see him having a very successful career? Hell yeah. 

Idk, I get annoyed when ppl think since it’s a weak positional group that the top guy at the position isn’t good. Chubb is prolly the 3rd best DL to come out in the past three years behind Bosa Garrett. He would of been a top5 pick last year and would of went before Thomas IMO

he is getting criminally underrated.