All Things Wrestling Thread

[Troy Brown]

4 hours ago, The LBC said:

Roman - the character that's presented - shouldn't be the face of the company, it's legitimately too on the nose that it's self-defeatist.  Roman (Joe) himself is a fantastic face of the company, but they won't let him be himself because his real life personality (outside of his relationship with his wife and kid) is pretty damn heelish - as it is for most Samoans.  Vince is still trying to sell 1980's concepts (it's not Cena, it's Hogan) almost 40 years later and I don't really think that concept is marketable.

Roman Reigns can work as a babyface and it wouldn't even require a heel turn first to accomplish, but he needs major editing and Vince, I honestly believe, doesn't grasp how to accomplish that.  For lack of a better word, he's too cute.  And Roman is not a guy that carries polish well.  And yet, he could still be a face of the company type of babyface in a Daniel Cormier model.  "You wanna hate me, hate me, but you only hate because you can't beat me."  That said, if you're going to run with that sort of gimmick with a Samoan brawler, you've got to expand his moveset (because it's really a gimmick better suited to guys with more technical backgrounds who can control where the "fight" takes place).  I think Roman may be the first Samoan I've seen that doesn't have a headbutt in his moveset... like.. what... the... hell?  Samoans also don't present as the type that should be doing things like hope spots or doing Ricky Morton levels of selling before mounting the miraculous comeback.  I don't know what producers are laying out Roman's matches, but they sure as heck around the same that was laying out babyface Rock's.  And no, Roman doesn't have anywhere near Rock's promo abilities, but he is very much capable of going in the ring in the same manner Rock did as a babyface, (that doesn't mean working the exact same as Rock did, but working similar match structures).  Honestly, if Roman's a babyface, his matches should be structured really similar to (non-DX) babyface Triple H matches.

according to jericho recently, there isn't much producing in a reigns match, he made it seem like it was generally called on the spot... with jericho, at least

[pollino14]

3 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

not fair to say this imo, no one is allowed to beside maybe jericho and the miz. 

i am a roman apologist, yes, but the guy is good in the ring, he's fine on the mic for what it is, and he's very clearly a product of the state of WWE and it's not a great state.

but as far as last night goes, i enjoyed the end segment. for the first time in a long time, brock feels like an actual heel. 

Fair enough. Being the top guy he does have a bit more leeway. I think it’s fairer to say he doesn’t have the wit to take what the situation gives you sometimes. He can’t ad lib spots that guys today like Miz, KO and Joe does.

 

And he used to be real good in the ring. I used to really enjoy his matches, but they’ve watered him down and all his matches are booked the same .

[Troy Brown]

Just now, pollino14 said:

Fair enough. Being the top guy he does have a bit more leeway. I think it’s fairer to say he doesn’t have the wit to take what the situation gives you sometimes. He can’t ad lib spots that guys today like Miz, KO and Joe does.

 

And he used to be real good in the ring. I used to really enjoy his matches, but they’ve watered him down and all his matches are booked the same .

I don't even feel like Joe ad libs, I think he's just THAT good that he makes whatever crap they give him sound like a million bucks. But yes, KO is a good one. Maybe even Sami now too.

I think being the top guy limits him in that regard actually because you know he's gonna be so frickin overly produced on the mic given they want him to follow their direction to a T

yeah i'll agree with you on his matches getting stale. he did have a really great run a few summers ago though with his matches

[pollino14]

1 minute ago, Troy Brown said:

I don't even feel like Joe ad libs, I think he's just THAT good that he makes whatever crap they give him sound like a million bucks. But yes, KO is a good one. Maybe even Sami now too.

I think being the top guy limits him in that regard actually because you know he's gonna be so frickin overly produced on the mic given they want him to follow their direction to a T

yeah i'll agree with you on his matches getting stale. he did have a really great run a few summers ago though with his matches

I think Roman has been done dirty. He could be the face they want him to be if they mold him into the a** kicker he looks like. Have him go down the ring say a quick sentence or two how he’s going to destroy dudes and then have him do it! We crave for those guys. Like Ryback, Braun (when they first started) , Brock ( when he first came back) , Bill Freakin Goldberg! Roman can do that too! Stop making him say his corny jokes and switch his move set up and he’d be great!

[Dr LBC]

14 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

not fair to say this imo, no one is allowed to beside maybe jericho and the miz. 

i am a roman apologist, yes, but the guy is good in the ring, he's fine on the mic for what it is, and he's very clearly a product of the state of WWE and it's not a great state.

but as far as last night goes, i enjoyed the end segment. for the first time in a long time, brock feels like an actual heel. 

I'll second the last bit and I'll throw in, for the first time in a feud that we've been waiting forever for them to just get it the hell over with so we can move on and see what's on the other side... there's at least something intriguing.  Because they're absolutely setting Heyman up either as a red herring to turn on Brock or as the real deal.  And, typically, WWE doesn't do red herrings particularly well and even in the event that they do, it's for the reason of disguising a different swerve involved in the exact same angle.  (Go back to the Invasion - clusteryouknowwhat that it was - they presented Jericho as the red herring to be the one to flip on WWE for the Alliance because he'd been a member of both those other rosters previously, but then it turned out to be Austin - who similarly had been part of both those rosters previously.)

Going back to the point I was making about Roman's character being a major hindrance to him, I think it's notable in "product of the state of WWE" that you pointed out.  For anyone that has listened to shoots on Vince as well as who listen regularly to Prichard's podcast, Vince is big on buzzwords (it's the carnival barker and marketing mind in him, he wants concise phrases that he can both use to talk up an attraction and also ones that he can trademark and ensure that whenever those words are used in relation to that talent/attraction... he's getting a cut).  I wouldn't be surprised if the understanding Roman has of his character (and for that matter that the script writers have for writing for him - and I think he may be one of the few talents actually having stuff written specifically for him rather than writers writing something they think is clever or "creative" and then figuring out who to give it to) is that he's "the BIG DOG" and that "this is his yard."

Go a step further and look at who the producers are backstage.  Find me the guys who were strong promos.  Arn could be, but Arn was strong with promos that other guys (like Tully and Ric and Dusty and Dillon) helped him craft; he had better delivery than creativity.  Road Dogg was, but it's well known that he's Hunter's right hand and pretty much exclusively works Smackdown.  Doot-Doot-Doot Hayes was a good promo, but he's also notorious for putting days gone by on a pedestal and having as terrible of a sense of humor (and no shame for writing to what he thinks is funny versus what the audience does) as Vince does.  And then the next best would be what?  D-Von?  I highly doubt D-Von's getting a ton of access to Roman; it wouldn't hurt, I think he could learn a lot from D-Von, but D-Von was never a particularly outstanding babyface and instead almost because caricature in that role.

Jamie Noble, Fit Finlay, Rotunda, Malenko, Kidman - these were guys who got over with their ringwork, not their mic work.  Not a whole lot of people who can teach or help foster improvisation.  And it definitely shows in the product (not just in Roman - most guys not named Miz, Jericho, Owens, Cena, or Heyman - with Joe and Elias still being a shade on the outside looking in - all struggle with improv).  And coincidentally, those guys mentioned all have a very in-depth working knowledge of who their character is because their character is themselves turned up to 11.

[Troy Brown]

Unfortunately, it would seem they're at a crossroads with this Lesnar/Reigns stuff.... Have Brock win dirty and continue what could be a really intriguing storyline with Brock but then you've kinda killed Roman going forward and they need to move on from Brock/Reigns... and maybe the whole angle has run it's course with that then given Reigns has been cutting promos on Brock not being there for months on end now but it sure is fun when Brock is actually there 

[Troy Brown]

becky can't catch a break

[PARROTHEAD]

8 hours ago, tom cody said:

I like Reigns but the guy shouldn't be the FOTC. It's not working. A guy like Rollins makes more sense to me as FOTC. 

There shouldnt be an individual FOTC. It doesnt work. It should be a collection at the top taking turns so all style fans can enjoy. When the pressure was on from WCW. WWE had Austin, Rock, Angle, Taker, Mankind all at the top. All different styles from each other. All different personalities. All taking a turn at top billing and major storyline roles.

 

[Dr LBC]

7 minutes ago, Troy Brown said:

Unfortunately, it would seem they're at a crossroads with this Lesnar/Reigns stuff.... Have Brock win dirty and continue what could be a really intriguing storyline with Brock but then you've kinda killed Roman going forward and they need to move on from Brock/Reigns... and maybe the whole angle has run it's course with that then given Reigns has been cutting promos on Brock not being there for months on end now but it sure is fun when Brock is actually there 

My gut says that - even though I really don't see how it's particularly the way a babyface would win, though they've shown they really don't give a flip about that kind of logic long since - we probably see them flip Heyman on Brock and put him with Roman as Roman's mouthpiece, hoping that Heyman being over will get Roman over - and it likely won't.  What would be the smart thing and I'll take my hat off to them if they do it (even if it is a rehash of the Cena/DB/Orton Summer Slam) would be to have Heyman "get himself a new beast" and ally himself with Braun and put him over - if they do it they'll probably do it over Roman to "build sympathy (which isn't going to come) for Roman" and we basically end up replacing Brock with Braun and this whole business continues (but at least you have a freakin' champion on TV regularly).

[Troy Brown]

1 minute ago, The LBC said:

My gut says that - even though I really don't see how it's particularly the way a babyface would win, though they've shown they really don't give a flip about that kind of logic long since - we probably see them flip Heyman on Brock and put him with Roman as Roman's mouthpiece, hoping that Heyman being over will get Roman over - and it likely won't.  What would be the smart thing and I'll take my hat off to them if they do it (even if it is a rehash of the Cena/DB/Orton Summer Slam) would be to have Heyman "get himself a new beast" and ally himself with Braun and put him over - if they do it they'll probably do it over Roman to "build sympathy (which isn't going to come) for Roman" and we basically end up replacing Brock with Braun and this whole business continues (but at least you have a freakin' champion on TV regularly).

I think they're already missing an opportunity as it is by not having SUPER OVER Braun Strowman as your champion but I also have genuinely enjoyed the Brock isn't here stuff and last night felt like the first creative move they've made with it. 

Perhaps the swerve is Heyman helps Brock retain

[Dr LBC]

1 minute ago, PARROTHEAD said:

There shouldnt be an individual FOTC. It doesnt work. It should be a collection at the top taking turns so all style fans can enjoy. When the pressure was on from WCW. WWE had Austin, Rock, Angle, Taker, Mankind all at the top. All different styles from each other. All different personalities. All taking a turn at top billing and major storyline roles.

 

And even when those guys were "at the top", Rock and Austin were still the faces of the company - even when they weren't holding the belt or in the main event - and every single one of the other guys you listed besides them would tell you that those two were the faces of the company.  That's the ironic subtlety of Taker's career is that while he's the heart and soul of the company and one of the most recognizable faces with a legacy second only to Hogan really (and some could righteously argue bigger than Hogan's if we're talking pure WWF/E legacy), he was never the face of the company to the outside world.  He was the face of the company within the company, but not to the mainstream.

[Dr LBC]

Just now, Troy Brown said:

I think they're already missing an opportunity as it is by not having SUPER OVER Braun Strowman as your champion but I also have genuinely enjoyed the Brock isn't here stuff and last night felt like the first creative move they've made with it. 

Perhaps the swerve is Heyman helps Brock retain

I'd argue that opportunity on getting Braun while he was super hot was already missed... not missing, it's gone by, he's started to cool off noticeably now that they've turned him into a comedic troll.  They went from having a badass that was (and I'm going to break out the Donald Gibb analogies here) a combination of the Juggernaut from Marvel Comics and Ray Jackson from Bloodsport to now having Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds (and he's not even really badass Ogre from the first movie, he's really starting to become Ogre from the sequels where he becomes a nerd himself).

[Troy Brown]

8 minutes ago, The LBC said:

I'd argue that opportunity on getting Braun while he was super hot was already missed... not missing, it's gone by, he's started to cool off noticeably now that they've turned him into a comedic troll.  They went from having a badass that was (and I'm going to break out the Donald Gibb analogies here) a combination of the Juggernaut from Marvel Comics and Ray Jackson from Bloodsport to now having Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds (and he's not even really badass Ogre from the first movie, he's really starting to become Ogre from the sequels where he becomes a nerd himself).

yeah I do think he's cooled off as well and should have been crowned last summer... but he's still best candidate to be champion, i think

[Troy Brown]

Who woulda thunk we'd see AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe as a co-headliner at Summerslam in 2018

[Troy Brown]

oh come on, orton could have easily ripped that earlobe off, ya'll gullible