All Things Wrestling Thread

[KManX89]

19 hours ago, pollino14 said:

I’d have Brock beat Roman (shock factor) and Braun challenging him Mon and winning.

What sense does that make having Reigns get screwed out of the belt in a match he actually won, then getting screwed out of the #1 contender's shot the next night on Raw and eventually earning another title shot after months of build-up only to lose to Brock YET AGAIN, though? Especially when they went out of their way to make Brock into a scapegoat who doesn't care about the business in an attempt to get him cheered? Sorry, I don't buy that they'll continue to make Reigns his whipping boy after all that's transpired, I'll be shocked if he doesn't walk away with the belt.

Then again, I and many others said the same thing at WM, and look how that turned out. 

[pollino14]

31 minutes ago, KManX89 said:

What sense does that make having Reigns get screwed out of the belt in a match he actually won, then getting screwed out of the #1 contender's shot the next night on Raw and eventually earning another title shot after months of build-up only to lose to Brock YET AGAIN, though? Especially when they went out of their way to make Brock into a scapegoat who doesn't care about the business in an attempt to get him cheered? Sorry, I don't buy that they'll continue to make Reigns his whipping boy after all that's transpired, I'll be shocked if he doesn't walk away with the belt.

Then again, I and many others said the same thing at WM, and look how that turned out. 

Which is why I said it’s a catch 22. He’s going to get booed.

[Dr LBC]

10 hours ago, pollino14 said:

It’s really a catch 22 in a way. They’ve spent so much time trying to make Roman the top face. The time is up and now they either A. Pull the trigger at SS, but will get booed continuously or B. They give  Braun the belt and all this time was wasted. 

 

LBC, how would you fix Reigns to be what the WWE wants him to be?

I think he almost has to be out of the title hunt for quite some time. And I think they have to book his matches much differently. It compares to how they booked Cena when adults hated him.

Thing is, he spent time out of the title hunt and people still crapped on him - because, whether it's coming from a position of being tired having him being forcefed as the top guy (I hate how people act like this hasn't happened before Cena and people weren't nearly as abrasive about it) or not, it's basically cool and trendy to hate on Roman now.  I almost think if you want to fix him you have to kayfabe injure him (if he doesn't end up injuring himself, but the timing right now is the most appropriate time to do it because it allows you to bring him back either in or just after the Rumble - preferably the later - and rebuild him through a non-title Mania feud that can get it's gas off him getting the "welcome back" pop).  Granted, you also have to build up both a tippy-top heel on RAW (read: push the everloving crap out of McIntyre; if Braun ends up with the title, you make Drew the one to take it off him) and a new top babyface (that's pretty easily done with Rollins at this point).

Ideally, I'd move him to Smackdown and rebuild him there because I really don't think you can build Roman as a babyface in an environment where Vince is heavy-handedly pulling the strings.  Is he pulling the strings on Smackdown?  Yes, and it will probably become more the case when SD moves to FOX, but the shorter time format and a greater variety in Vince's ear on SD would help keep Roman from being overexposed (which I honestly feel may be the biggest issue right now - there's too much of him, he's being treated like Hogan, but he isn't getting the organic crowd responses that Hogan got).

One other thing that would help, but I don't have any faith in happening.  Let's face it, the biggest heel on RAW is Stephanie.  The problem is, unlike her old man who put over the babyface and got his comeuppance on the regular (at least once per month), Steph only sells her getting her comeuppance once a year (usually Mania).  If there were some way for Roman to feud with Steph where she'd actually regularly get her comeuppance (not necessarily physically beaten per say, but beaten in a thwarted kind of way) and she didn't bury him like she does every other talent she works with - and Hunter wasn't involved at all, because Hunter gets a pop and a reaction for being Hunter... it's a pretty standard legends pop at this point.

[Dr LBC]

52 minutes ago, pollino14 said:

Which is why I said it’s a catch 22. He’s going to get booed.

Yeah, they've basically created a scenario where they're going to have done all this build for Braun and Roman and only one of them can come out not looking like it was all for not.  Either Roman literally has no credibility because he'll have failed yet again to come out on top against Brock, or he does and immediately (same night or next night it's pretty much the same) gets cashed in on and then is still let chasing the payoff.  Or you've built up Braun, given him a (effectively) guaranteed title win, but you can't payoff that title win because it undermines the "main guy" you've been working for 3+ years to build into that spot.  And a lot of this traces back to 1) whether Braun should have gotten the MITB case in the first place and 2) if you were intent on giving it to him, he should have cashed in and won as soon as he and Brock were present on the same show - which in itself is somewhat counterproductive because ideally, in Booking 101, you've built up Braun finally getting Brock one-on-one and "being able to be finished with him" so much that you want to promote that for at least a week to milk it for the viewership and ratings.

[KManX89]

24 minutes ago, The LBC said:

Yeah, they've basically created a scenario where they're going to have done all this build for Braun and Roman and only one of them can come out not looking like it was all for not.  Either Roman literally has no credibility because he'll have failed yet again to come out on top against Brock, or he does and immediately (same night or next night it's pretty much the same) gets cashed in on and then is still let chasing the payoff.  Or you've built up Braun, given him a (effectively) guaranteed title win, but you can't payoff that title win because it undermines the "main guy" you've been working for 3+ years to build into that spot.  And a lot of this traces back to 1) whether Braun should have gotten the MITB case in the first place and 2) if you were intent on giving it to him, he should have cashed in and won as soon as he and Brock were present on the same show - which in itself is somewhat counterproductive because ideally, in Booking 101, you've built up Braun finally getting Brock one-on-one and "being able to be finished with him" so much that you want to promote that for at least a week to milk it for the viewership and ratings.

You're leaving somebody in a rough spot either way, but Reigns has more to lose than Braun does ATM TBH. They either completely ditch Reigns' payoff after all that build-up or simply delay Braun's, even though common sense dictates he would either cash in before or during the match to get a crack at Lesnar's title, or even after Reigns finally gets the monkey off his back and takes the belt off of Brock, which would also be somewhat of a mixed bag. On the one hand, it would leave everyone coming home happy, but at the same time, it totally undermines the payoff of Lesnar finally putting someone over and riding off into the sunset (or rather, UFC), not to mention Angle hyping him up to beat Lesnar and "take back the Universal title". 

 

[Dr LBC]

Just now, KManX89 said:

You're leaving somebody in a rough spot either way, but Reigns has more to lose than Braun does ATM TBH. They either completely ditch Reigns' payoff after all that build-up or simply delay Braun's, even though common sense dictates he would either cash in before or during the match to get a crack at Lesnar's title, or even after Reigns finally gets the monkey off his back and takes the belt off of Brock, which would also be somewhat of a mixed bag. On the one hand, it would leave everyone coming home happy, but at the same time, it totally undermines the payoff of Lesnar finally putting someone over and riding off into the sunset (or rather, UFC), not to mention Angle hyping him up to beat Lesnar and "take back the Universal title". 

 

Well, the longer they stretch this out, particularly if they give Reigns any kind of run as Universal Champion, the more that Braun's cash-in becomes a heel move and I just genuinely don't think - unless he turns on an already majorly-over babyface (like Seth or Finn - and Finn's debatable at this point) - I don't think Braun will be treated as a heel even if he's positioned that way.

Realistically, I don't know that WWE can make fans happy at this point.  I feel like people have conditioned themselves to find faults no matter what and any positives are always going to be filtered through that first.  The only way they'd get close to universal happiness this point isn't realistic, which would be going to a New Japan strong-style type of show that minimizes the commercialism - and that's not, pardon the pun, best for business, because the advertisers (and thus the shareholders) will not be happy.

[bcb1213]

Good lord. Ambrose looks like Donnie Wahlberg now with that cut 

[pollino14]

2 hours ago, The LBC said:

Thing is, he spent time out of the title hunt and people still crapped on him - because, whether it's coming from a position of being tired having him being forcefed as the top guy (I hate how people act like this hasn't happened before Cena and people weren't nearly as abrasive about it) or not, it's basically cool and trendy to hate on Roman now.  I almost think if you want to fix him you have to kayfabe injure him (if he doesn't end up injuring himself, but the timing right now is the most appropriate time to do it because it allows you to bring him back either in or just after the Rumble - preferably the later - and rebuild him through a non-title Mania feud that can get it's gas off him getting the "welcome back" pop).  Granted, you also have to build up both a tippy-top heel on RAW (read: push the everloving crap out of McIntyre; if Braun ends up with the title, you make Drew the one to take it off him) and a new top babyface (that's pretty easily done with Rollins at this point).

Ideally, I'd move him to Smackdown and rebuild him there because I really don't think you can build Roman as a babyface in an environment where Vince is heavy-handedly pulling the strings.  Is he pulling the strings on Smackdown?  Yes, and it will probably become more the case when SD moves to FOX, but the shorter time format and a greater variety in Vince's ear on SD would help keep Roman from being overexposed (which I honestly feel may be the biggest issue right now - there's too much of him, he's being treated like Hogan, but he isn't getting the organic crowd responses that Hogan got).

One other thing that would help, but I don't have any faith in happening.  Let's face it, the biggest heel on RAW is Stephanie.  The problem is, unlike her old man who put over the babyface and got his comeuppance on the regular (at least once per month), Steph only sells her getting her comeuppance once a year (usually Mania).  If there were some way for Roman to feud with Steph where she'd actually regularly get her comeuppance (not necessarily physically beaten per say, but beaten in a thwarted kind of way) and she didn't bury him like she does every other talent she works with - and Hunter wasn't involved at all, because Hunter gets a pop and a reaction for being Hunter... it's a pretty standard legends pop at this point.

I was thinking about him getting ‘injured ‘ as well. 

Ive said this all along too I think we crave a dominant badass face. Have Reigns come back , have a more physical move set and have him dominate guys might do the thing.

[biggio7]

I haven't watched in a while. I try to follow here and there though. I've been saying for a while Roman needed to be away for a while. Remember when he was hurt and out before? I thought he came back too soon. He needs to really be gone for months. Keep it quiet from the internet and such when he is coming back too or at least really put in an effort for it. When he comes back, just have him dominate people and never get on the mic once.

[Dr LBC]

5 hours ago, pollino14 said:

I was thinking about him getting ‘injured ‘ as well. 

Ive said this all along too I think we crave a dominant badass face. Have Reigns come back , have a more physical move set and have him dominate guys might do the thing.

One thing I'd thought about that could help contribute (I'm not sure, it's risky, but it could also have a huge impact), but you effectively do the return from injury like they did with Triple H back when he tore his quad: Show teaser 'rehab" promo videos, hype a return date, and actually put him in NXT doing his ring rehab.  That's where you show him being more aggressive, more hard-hitting... and then he has a setback that puts his recovery and specifically his return date in question.  That way when he comes back ahead of schedule, unannounced, to come to Seth's aid and yes, to just be more physical, you get the pop but you also have him with a perceived weakness (the Roman can be his own worst enemy with his aggression).  I've been saying for a while he should get using a Yakuza kick, it's not a far stretch from the Driveby anyway, but with some of the guys they have that can sell it, he could be turning guys inside out with it.  But it's having that one perceived weakness that I think can help him get over better with the fans because then he's not pushed as Superman and even if he starts going all aggro on someone, you could actually have him DQ'd for going too far or not listening to a ref's 5-count; if it's still giving a guy his deserved comeuppance, fans should cheer regardless of whether he wins or loses.

[pollino14]

5 hours ago, The LBC said:

One thing I'd thought about that could help contribute (I'm not sure, it's risky, but it could also have a huge impact), but you effectively do the return from injury like they did with Triple H back when he tore his quad: Show teaser 'rehab" promo videos, hype a return date, and actually put him in NXT doing his ring rehab.  That's where you show him being more aggressive, more hard-hitting... and then he has a setback that puts his recovery and specifically his return date in question.  That way when he comes back ahead of schedule, unannounced, to come to Seth's aid and yes, to just be more physical, you get the pop but you also have him with a perceived weakness (the Roman can be his own worst enemy with his aggression).  I've been saying for a while he should get using a Yakuza kick, it's not a far stretch from the Driveby anyway, but with some of the guys they have that can sell it, he could be turning guys inside out with it.  But it's having that one perceived weakness that I think can help him get over better with the fans because then he's not pushed as Superman and even if he starts going all aggro on someone, you could actually have him DQ'd for going too far or not listening to a ref's 5-count; if it's still giving a guy his deserved comeuppance, fans should cheer regardless of whether he wins or loses.

If it were a serious injury , I think it would help him out. I’d have issue with a major kayfabe injury. 

I really feel bad for the guy. He hasn’t received any favors from management ; but the guy can go, we’ve seen it before. And he can talk when he’s being more like himself and not being A smiling comedian 

[Dr LBC]

4 hours ago, pollino14 said:

If it were a serious injury , I think it would help him out. I’d have issue with a major kayfabe injury. 

I really feel bad for the guy. He hasn’t received any favors from management ; but the guy can go, we’ve seen it before. And he can talk when he’s being more like himself and not being A smiling comedian 

I don't think that it can be double-dipped on (mostly because, sadly, you're going to get a decent amount of fans that will crap on anything he does that isn't a heel turn), but can you imagine if they'd have "tweaked" Roman at the same time and in the same was that they tweaked the Usos?  More of that street feel, even if it is over-the-top, and hell, that was an instance where they tried to make the Usos edgier and bordering on heels and the crowd organically jumped on them and was giving them face reactions.

I really do think (and this is something I do feel like I can kind of fault Roman for because this is a trait pretty common among guys that his dad and uncle trained) the struggles Roman had were for lack of a mentor; instead because Vince looked at him and saw what he felt was an amalgam of Cena and Rock, Vince was his mentor... but Vince isn't going to give him the kind of hard advice he needs if that conflicts with what Vince thinks is best for business and the vision he has.  Good or bad, when guys like Punk and Lesnar came in they had guys on the writing team that actually had experience promoting wrestlers and getting guys over who were huge champions of them backstage (Heyman, Cornette, both in the case of Lesnar).  It's the same sort of thing where I think we're seeing Hunter in that awkward place with talent like Asuka and Sasha and Bailey (he's their biggest champions, but he's also the boss' son-in-law and the guy that's trying to make sure he's left as the one in charge when the time eventually comes).  The closest thing that WWE has really had to one of those guys (since Heyman simply isn't and hasn't been in any sort of creative influence capacity since Punk left - and had likely burnt those bridges because of how incessantly he reportedly pushed for Punk -see Prichard's SETWW special on that) was Jimmy Jacobs and Jimmy had more history with Seth and Dean, so he was more apt to work out stuff for them and to be tight with them than he was Roman.  The manner in which Roman and Roman's "character" has been handled reeks of Vince's sense of humor and Michael Hayes "guiding."  It absolutely reeks of it.  And can anyone tell me a single babyface that Michael Hayes ever understood or produced? (even as the initial Hardyz manager he was meh and quickly replaced)  Because all he's ever known is how to get heel heat.

[Livewire]

Very well done video packages with the Miz and Bryan. Really good setting up the history they have had with each other.

[DawgX]

So, what's everyone's predictions for SummerSlam?

- Reigns defeats Lesnar: I'm hoping Stroman cashes in, but I'm not really counting on it.

- Bliss defeats Rousey: Really have no idea. Obviously Bliss will only beat Rousey if there's interference or in a dirty finish, but I can see this one going either way.

- Styles defeats Samoa Joe: Another match where I'm not totally sure what the result will be, but I'm guessing they're going to keep the strap on AJ for a little while longer.

- Bludgeon Bros. defeat New Day: At least I hope so. I'm so utterly bored by the New Day.

- Stroman defeats Ownes: Again, only way Owens wins is if there's some sort of interference. I just hope they make KO look good in this match.

- Carmella defeats Becky Lynch and Charlotte: Another tough one to predict, but I'm guessing the champ retains.

- Nakamura defeats Jeff Hardy: I'm sure Orton will get involved in this one. Maybe Hardy wins via DQ.

- Balor vs. Corbin: No idea. I like both guys but couldn't care less about this "feud".

- Daniel Bryan defeats Miz: Finally getting to see a match between these two should be fun, and I think DB comes out on top.

- B-Team defeats Revival: Eh, just because.

- Ziggler defeats Rollins. I'm sure it won't be a clean finish, and I could see Ambrose turning on Rollins. Or, at least I hope he does.

[beekay414]

Put the damn strap on Miz already!