Julian Edelman facing 4 game suspension for PED

[y*so*blu]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

“Guerrero banishment” - I don’t know if other teams allow non-employees to come on the plane and join the team, but I don’t believe it’s breaking news that someone who isn’t employed by the organization be disallowed from joining the team everywhere. Especially when he’s unorthodox and likely undermines whatbthe team’s trainers are doing (Guerrero is a bonafide snake oil salesmen IMO). Good riddance he’s gone, but I’m not seeing how this means things are going down.

It doesn't mean things are going downhill, but the problem is that Guerrero isn't really gone. As long as he's involved with the training of Brady, Edelman, Gronk and others, he will continue to be a distraction. Belichick's desire to distance himself from Guerrero, and Brady's desire to do the opposite, may be a bone of contention that eventually pries the two of them apart. I agree with you that the man is a con artist and not to be trusted, but clearly Brady does trust him. A lot. Trains with him, wrote a book with him, is developing a brand with him, etc. I don't know how he got himself so deeply enmeshed in Brady's personal and professional life, but the whole thing just gives me a bad feeling. If I were Belichick I'd be wishing I dropped the guy from the team plane into Kezar Lake when I had the chance.

[Hunter2_1]

15 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Not to someone that is already set on believing that the evil empire’s crumbling. And I’m fully aware I’m the pot and others are the kettle here, the bias goes both ways. But my side has context, the other has headlines. 

“Butler situation” - Odd for sure. But it’s a real stretch to say this was personal and not for the actual team. Butler has a down year all year and didn’t match up well with any of the Eagles receiver except Agholor. He had the flu and missed practices, then when he did practice he didn’t play well. Was it weird not to inform other Pats players? Yeah, but it happens. If Butler doesn’t make the time winning interception and Lockette scores, we’d all be blasting him for putting a rookie UDFA into the last drive of the SB. 

“Brady’s loyalty” - Not really even sure how to take that one. He’s the oldest QB ever to play at this level, I guess it’s news when he flirts with retirement or skips voluntary OTAs? It’s not ideal, but hardly breaking. 

“Unrest with Gronk” - Another one I don’t even get. He’s an underpaid TE that sustains a crazy amount of injuries/punishment, we’re saying there’s unrest with him because he thought he might retire? When it’s pretty clearly posturing for a deal that pays him appropriately? Big Ben makes comments about retirement and Bell doesn’t even show up to anything, but somehow it’s bigger news because...well, Pats.

”Belichick dissatisfaction with trading Jimmy G” - Who wouldn’t be dissatisfied? Jimmy said he wanted to start. Bill couldn’t guarantee him that for 2019. Trade deadline occurred. Jimmy was traded. He’s good so you want to keep him, but couldn’t afford to franchise him and have him sit. Not with so many FAs. 

“Guerrero banishment” - I don’t know if other teams allow non-employees to come on the plane and join the team, but I don’t believe it’s breaking news that someone who isn’t employed by the organization be disallowed from joining the team everywhere. Especially when he’s unorthodox and likely undermines whatbthe team’s trainers are doing (Guerrero is a bonafide snake oil salesmen IMO). Good riddance he’s gone, but I’m not seeing how this means things are going down.

 

I wouldn't bother, YY.

[N4L]

On 6/8/2018 at 4:47 PM, Forge said:

Haha, the guy said on reddit that he's just some rando and that he has no sources and just took a wild swing at the Edelman news and happened to be right when he heard news was coming out of NE. As someone said in the 49er forum, A+ troll job by this guy. 

Honestly, given that colangelo's burner accounts essentially ended his career in the NBA, I don't buy the retraction. I think its much more likely that this was a leak in the organization who realized that the national media has identified his account as a 'potential burner account' and decided to lay low for a while. It's a more likely scenario than just guessing a specific player failed a drug test 

Say what you want @Yin-Yang, but you cannot deny the fact that there has been more leaked info from annoymous sources within the organization than at any other time in BB's tenure in New England. That place used to be buttoned up tight. Now? Seems like a new story comes out every month about unrest in the building. 

As a Niner fan, I didn't want to believe any of the rumors about the problems going on behind the scenes during harbaugh's tenure. Then he is let go and it comes out that all of the rumors were true, and then some. 

[Soko]

42 minutes ago, N4L said:

Say what you want @Yin-Yang, but you cannot deny the fact that there has been more leaked info from annoymous sources within the organization than at any other time in BB's tenure in New England.

What “leaked info”? All you have is the Belichick/Jimmy G situation - which was categorically denied by all involved. Butler’s situation isn’t “leaked info”. Gronk’s retirement talk wasn’t “leaked info”. Brady’s retirement wasn’t “leaked info”. Guerrero’s ability to travel with the team wasn’t “leaked info”. 

This is a prime case of confirmation bias within the “there’s too much noise for this to not be real” narrative. Whats that, there’s a new headline? Must be real!

42 minutes ago, N4L said:

That place used to be buttoned up tight. Now? Seems like a new story comes out every month about unrest in the building. 

Yeah, it’s almost like media outlets have something to gain from all the headlines being generated...not when it comes to the most hated team in the league (maybe 2nd) or anything...

I’m not saying all’s rosey in NE. Brady’s in his last year (or two, according to him) and missed OTAs. His BFF still clogs his head with nonsense and apparently has got Gronk and Edelman under his wing too. Gronk is posturing for a contract and whether the retirement talk was real or just negotiating, it’s not ideal for the team. The Butler situation wasn’t really ever addressed (not that the coach exactly owes any of the other players an explanation) and that probably doesn’t sit well with some of the guys. The team also just lost the SB and needs to rebound from that.

But all that “dissension in the ranks” stuff? I’ll believe it when there’s actually something to work off of. Just as I’m sure you, and 99% of others, will just assume it’s happening because “hey man, there’s smoke there’s gotta be fire”. 

@Hunter2_1, you’re right. 

[Broncofan]

Well this is interesting.  

 

Anyone else wondering why Guerrero & his TB12 system were really anxious to implicate the Pats before Edelman himself even said anything?  

Obv. no way to know for sure but it seems obvious who’s way more likely to develop “new” substances and it’s not the NFL team. 

 

 

[childofpudding]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Well this is interesting.  

 

Anyone else wondering why Guerrero & his TB12 system were really anxious to implicate the Pats before Edelman himself even said anything?  

Obv. no way to know for sure but it seems obvious who’s way more likely to develop “new” substances and it’s not the NFL team. 

 

 

It's kind of weird. From the SI story that PFT story is based on (https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/06/11/seattle-seahawks-rebuild-pete-carroll-hue-jackson-browns-tyrod-taylor-baker-mayfield)

" I know what Julian Edelman posted on Instagram in the wake of the suspension news (“I don’t know what happened”) came off as a little weird, but there is an explanation for it. I was told Edelman’s result was triggered by a substance that wasn’t immediately recognizable, and there are scientists analyzing it. And as to the timing, the test did happen during the offseason (a couple months ago), which means it’s not for any kind of stimulant. You might remember the rash of players saying they got popped for Adderall—the rules have changed now so that offseason use of stimulants falls under the substances of abuse policy, rather than the PED policy."

So he was tested a couple months ago, and the drug testers still haven't told him what substance he's being banned for? It seems odd that 1) you're implementing a suspension for a banned substance, but don't know what the banned substance is; and 2) two months after the initial test, you STILL can't say what it is. Must be some super secretive cocktail, or something.

[Hunter2_1]

Unrecognised substance? What?!

No wonder TB12 is keeping them all young.

[Buc Ball]

Surely you work out what the substance is before deciding whether to suspend the player.

Only thing I can think of is they know roughly what it is, that it’s a PED, but they don’t know the name of it.

If this is genuinely something in nothing then I feel bad for JE. Equally, it wouldn’t surprise me if this was some next generation stuff that the testers have no idea exists.

[RuskieTitan]

So maybe he's actually got a secret mutant gene and it wasnt activated until recently?

[Hunter2_1]

2 hours ago, Buc Ball said:

Surely you work out what the substance is before deciding whether to suspend the player.

Only thing I can think of is they know roughly what it is, that it’s a PED, but they don’t know the name of it.

If this is genuinely something in nothing then I feel bad for JE. Equally, it wouldn’t surprise me if this was some next generation stuff that the testers have no idea exists.

Drugs are usually ahead of the tests

[childofpudding]

7 hours ago, Buc Ball said:

Surely you work out what the substance is before deciding whether to suspend the player.

Only thing I can think of is they know roughly what it is, that it’s a PED, but they don’t know the name of it.

If this is genuinely something in nothing then I feel bad for JE. Equally, it wouldn’t surprise me if this was some next generation stuff that the testers have no idea exists.

It wouldnt surprise me if it was some previously unknown substance that lit the lamp. But two months later and they still dont know what it was? That is kind of crazy.

[skywlker32]

The "unrecognizable substance" comment likely means the test identified a molecule that is banned, but the source of the molecule is unknown. Steroid molecules, for example, come in many forms and the test may just identify that presence of a steroid.

[Broncofan]

6 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Drugs are usually ahead of the tests

 

40 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

The "unrecognizable substance" comment likely means the test identified a molecule that is banned, but the source of the molecule is unknown. Steroid molecules, for example, come in many forms and the test may just identify that presence of a steroid.

Yeah this link explains it more but pretty much the above.   This isn’t a benign result.   Edelman is just Patient zero in this case of PED identification. 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/06/12/understanding-the-unrecognized-substance-quirk-in-julian-edelmans-positive-ped-test/

 

[Shanedorf]

There's no reason for the NFL to identify what they found because then the rats all scurry for cover. IF they don't tell the dopers what was found, then it makes it harder on the new drug designers to get around it. And given Guerrero's comments about NFL players seeing multiple MDs - there is some uncertainty for all of them over what was found, what Edelman got popped for and who was responsible.

Additionally, there is the complication of metabolism. What they found in the urine sample could be the original PED or it could be a metabolite of the original. Many drugs work in this fashion where it isn't active until after the liver converts it to the metabolite. In the case of many steroids, they are injected, bypassing the liver on the first pass and they are then metabolized by enzymes in the blood or muscle tissues before hitting the liver on the next pass through.

Each athlete is gonna process things differently and their bodies react differently to the dosing. If you start taking drug ABC regularly, your body will react by making more of the enzymes responsible for metabolizing ABC - and then as a result, you will clear it faster than when you first started. There is also the issue of drug-drug interaction: How do the other supplements and substances impact the metabolism of this one ?  If other substances are all using the same ABC-Enzyme pathway, then clearance is inhibited and you'll test higher. Its an amazingly complex scenario for these athletes and in many cases they aren't working with brainiacs, but instead with lesser-educated folks who thrive in this underground arena. Its a real challenge to balance a high enough dose to be effective, but no so large as to cause toxicity and/or to test positive for these newly- created molecules

Its all part of the cat and mouse game and there's zero value in the cat telling the mouse anything. Its not that the scientists don't know - they do. Its that they aren't gonna tell the rest of the world just yet and that's clearly to their advantage. And as noted in the link above, the NFL has a catch-all provision in their PED rules so that the chemists can't just make a small change to a banned substance and get away with it.

Going forward Edelman will be subject to much more frequent testing and that may have an impact his career as he moves deeper into his 30's.

[childofpudding]

1 hour ago, Shanedorf said:

There's no reason for the NFL to identify what they found because then the rats all scurry for cover. IF they don't tell the dopers what was found, then it makes it harder on the new drug designers to get around it. And given Guerrero's comments about NFL players seeing multiple MDs - there is some uncertainty for all of them over what was found, what Edelman got popped for and who was responsible.

Additionally, there is the complication of metabolism. What they found in the urine sample could be the original PED or it could be a metabolite of the original. Many drugs work in this fashion where it isn't active until after the liver converts it to the metabolite. In the case of many steroids, they are injected, bypassing the liver on the first pass and they are then metabolized by enzymes in the blood or muscle tissues before hitting the liver on the next pass through.

Each athlete is gonna process things differently and their bodies react differently to the dosing. If you start taking drug ABC regularly, your body will react by making more of the enzymes responsible for metabolizing ABC - and then as a result, you will clear it faster than when you first started. There is also the issue of drug-drug interaction: How do the other supplements and substances impact the metabolism of this one ?  If other substances are all using the same ABC-Enzyme pathway, then clearance is inhibited and you'll test higher. Its an amazingly complex scenario for these athletes and in many cases they aren't working with brainiacs, but instead with lesser-educated folks who thrive in this underground arena. Its a real challenge to balance a high enough dose to be effective, but no so large as to cause toxicity and/or to test positive for these newly- created molecules

Its all part of the cat and mouse game and there's zero value in the cat telling the mouse anything. Its not that the scientists don't know - they do. Its that they aren't gonna tell the rest of the world just yet and that's clearly to their advantage. And as noted in the link above, the NFL has a catch-all provision in their PED rules so that the chemists can't just make a small change to a banned substance and get away with it.

Going forward Edelman will be subject to much more frequent testing and that may have an impact his career as he moves deeper into his 30's.

Nice explanation - thank you