Kawhi Leonard Traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan

[Troy Brown]

1 minute ago, RavensTillIDie said:

But I doubt they're going to try and turn him into something he's not. He's still going to be a high usage guard who takes the majority of his shots from the mid range, but he can certainly stand to improve as a defender and a passer under Pop in the Spurs system.

He already improved vastly as a playmaker the last few years, that's silly to say he can't improve. I think the same zebra line was given about Jaylen Brown shooting tho SO

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

That's fine, was still unplayable against the Cavs and got destroyed in the high pick and roll. Not even saying he's a bad player or anything, but completely MEH at losing him for Kawhi. They didn't have to give up the other top young talent, big win for the Raptors. 

How many 7-footers defend the high PnR well? Even Gobert was getting torched in the playoffs. 

41 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

In the post Jim Buss-era, the Lakers have usually been pretty tight-lipped.  Hell, Woj didn't even have the Lakers pick until a few seconds before it was announced.  I mean, the Magic/LeBron meeting wasn't realized until after the fact.  If there's anyone whose getting a beat from the Lakers' FO, it's Ramona Shelbourne and it's been implied that she will get some nuggets from Jeanie Buss.

If the Lakers did make Kuzma off-limits and they weren't willing to deal Brandon Ingram, what kind of package could they put forth for the Spurs?  That's why Kuzma being off-limits makes no sense.  A Hart-based package isn't motivating the Spurs, and the Lakers' picks weren't making up that.  That's why it's unlikely that the Lakers actually made Kuzma off-limits.

It's a combination of both.  You want to imply it has to be one or the other, but the reality is it's probably a combination of both.  If the packages were even close, the Spurs were going to ship him from the East.  I mean, what would you consider a fair package from Philadelphia or Boston?  One of Tatum, Brown, or Fultz would have to be included.  What's the Lakers' comparable player?  Brandon Ingram.  So if the Sixers weren't offering Markelle Fultz and the Celtics weren't willing to develop Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown, why would the Lakers consider moving Brandon Ingram?  You pay what the market dictates.  But the Spurs supposedly kept a high price tag, which indicates to me that the Spurs had little to no interest in dealing with the Lakers, unless they were getting their package back.  The Lakers weren't giving up all that when the Sixers/Celtics weren't willing to put up their notable assets.

And you keep saying that he wasn't available during the entire trade discussions.  There's nobody reported that.  The initial report was that the Spurs coveted him, but the Lakers hadn't formally offered him up in a deal.  Then the report came out that the Sixers and Celtics weren't ponying up.  And then we heard that the Spurs' demands hadn't changed.  So the Lakers moved on.

If it was a Kuzma-based package, who would have been added for the salary match?

[11sanchez11]

3 hours ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

This has to be one of the best case scenarios for the Lakers, right?  The chances that Kawhi re-signs with the Raptors has to be close to zero, Drake recruitment pitches and all.  Lakers are much more likely to get him for nothing next year than if he had gone to Philly, Boston, or LAC.

if they win the east (go to the Finals), might be enough to keep him. Plus they can pay him more than any other team. Plus the Lakers said no to trade for him so he put off by that ala PG13.

[11sanchez11]

3 hours ago, JBURGE said:

Who starts at the 2 for Toronto, Anunoby, Van Vleet..?

I would go Lowry, Danny Green, Kawhi, OG, Jonas

Raps are going to really good next. Should be one of the best defensive teams in the NBA

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

You really think the Spurs and Raptors have just been talking recently and haven't been talking for the past few weeks? The Lakers may not have seen the Raptors as big threats and that could be the reason why they pulled Kuzma. But it was reported on June 29th that the Lakers have not offered Ingram in any trade discussion....So that was before any of the free agent moves the Lakers made. And they got the vibe that the San Antonio wasn't interested in trading Kawhi to the Lakers? What does San Antonio do if Ingram is offered then? Do they still have the same vibes? This wasn't unlike any negotiation where one team demands more than they realistically expect to get back and the other team offers something less than they expect to deal. You can't tell me Popovich hates the Lakers so much that he would have passed on a Ingram centered deal for something less. Ingram could have potentially been the Spurs next star. While Derozan will be there for probably no longer than two years. 

No.  I think Toronto touched based with San Antonio early on to express interest and based on their discussions with San Antonio didn't feel that they were real players for him.  And it wasn't until things didn't materialize elsewhere, that they touched back with the Spurs.  San Antonio was clearly trying to create a bidding war between the Lakers, Sixers, and Celtics but that never materialized.  There's a number of reasons why the Lakers might have removed Kuzma from the trade offer.  They probably didn't feel that the Spurs had any real suitors or that Kawhi was inevitably going to end up in a Lakers uniform one way or the other.  It was reported that the Spurs' demands from the Lakers hadn't changed even after Boston and Philadelphia were unwilling to meet the high asking price.

As for the whole Popovich hating the Lakers, I think it was about saving face.  If he walks away with an Ingram/picks package, he looks like he got worked.  They downgraded from Kawhi to Ingram for a few late FRPs.  If San Antonio had a more legitimate asking price, I think an Ingram-based package could have gotten done.  But the fact that the Lakers moved on from Kawhi with the Lance Stephenson and JaVale McGee signings indicates that.  The Lakers can't make a deal for Kawhi without including Luol Deng until December.

[CWood21]

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

If it was a Kuzma-based package, who would have been added for the salary match?

It would have been stickier.  I think they had something like $5.6M in cap space at the time.  Stretch Luol Deng and that creates an additional $7.4M in cap space.  That combined with Kyle Kuzma would have been $14.7M, which is about $5.4M short of what they needed.  They could have pieced it together using Josh Hart, Ivica Zubac, and included Mo Wagner I believe.  Probably more likely means they wouldn't have signed Rajon Rondo.

[J-ALL-DAY]

Got absolutely worked by getting Ingram+picks? No, most would have understood it and come away happy getting a potential star in Ingram out of a guy who wanted out and was going to leave in a year. Do you think the fans of the Spurs are more satisfied in two years of Derozan over five to six years of Ingram?

Anyways, we keep going in circles. I just disagree with your initial premise that the Spurs had no intention of doing a deal with the Lakers. That would have only been valid if Ingram was offered by the Lakers and the Spurs still turned it down for something less like what they got from Toronto.

Lowry/Van Fleet/Kawhi/OG/Siakam or Ibaka is going to give the Celtics some issues. You could put OG or Kawhi on Tatum, and the other one Hayward. The Raptors will have top level defense to go along with a pretty versatile offensive unit. Going to be interesting, but not counting out the Raptors in the East by any means. 

[11sanchez11]

2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Kept OG, Siakam and Wright...Who I like more than most

I would take Jacob over Siakam and Wright going forward

[11sanchez11]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Because everything we've heard up through this point was that the Spurs were asking for Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, two FRPs and the option to swap two more FRPs.  That's a FAR cry from what the Spurs actually asked for

but we would never know because the Lakers took Ingram and Kuzma off the table lmao

[11sanchez11]

2 hours ago, indifference said:

Raptors are betting on themselves like OKC did with PG. But there’s a huge difference between playing with Lowry and playing with Westbrook.

the raptors are obviously going to be better than OKC last year

[11sanchez11]

2 hours ago, Danger said:

It'll be amusing to watch it unfold as Philly and Boston are both going head to head in the ECF for years though

boston, sure. Simmons and Embiid have to get way better to be on BOS's level.

[11sanchez11]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

If their goal us to go for broke one year just to lose to the Warriors in the Finals ok.

pretty sure their goal is to resign Kawhi lol

The KD-Warriors aren't going to be around for much longer.

[J-ALL-DAY]

24 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

I would take Jacob over Siakam and Wright going forward

I may take Siakam over OG going forward.

Wright is just a personal favorite, so no argument there. 

[CWood21]

45 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Got absolutely worked by getting Ingram+picks? No, most would have understood it and come away happy getting a potential star in Ingram out of a guy who wanted out and was going to leave in a year. Do you think the fans of the Spurs are more satisfied in two years of Derozan over five to six years of Ingram?

Anyways, we keep going in circles. I just disagree with your initial premise that the Spurs had no intention of doing a deal with the Lakers. That would have only been valid if Ingram was offered by the Lakers and the Spurs still turned it down for something less like what they got from Toronto.

Lowry/Van Fleet/Kawhi/OG/Siakam or Ibaka is going to give the Celtics some issues. You could put OG or Kawhi on Tatum, and the other one Hayward. The Raptors will have top level defense to go along with a pretty versatile offensive unit. Going to be interesting, but not counting out the Raptors in the East by any means. 

When they originally were asking for Ingram, Kuzma, and multiple picks, yes it would have been.  After the bidding war between the Lakers, Sixers, and Celtics never materialized, yes.  But when the Sixers and Celtics were only offering pick-based package, there was no reason for the Lakers to include Brandon Ingram in a deal.  I mean, does Brandon Ingram not have exponentially more value than a pick-based package by the Celtics or Sixers?  That's when Brandon Ingram effectively become untouchable.

And we're not talking about not dealing with the Lakers under all costs.  The Spurs wanted a package from the Lakers that was far and away the best package.  Not just the best package, but something that would hurt the Lakers.  That works when there's other suitors in the mix, but when the Celtics and Sixers effectively sat out the trade discussions you loose that leverage.  As long as the Sixers made Fultz off-limits and the Celtics weren't willing to deal Tatum/Brown, why should the Lakers consider offering Brandon Ingram?

Look at the deadline.  The Lakers agreed to a deal with Rajon Rondo on July 2nd, which effectively killed a Kyle Kuzma-based deal since they didn't have the required cap space to assume Kawhi's contract.  I believe it was around that time that it was reported that Kuzma was untouchable.  It's very possible that Stephen A. Smith (who I believe reported it) misunderstood whatever his source was saying.  The Lakers couldn't make a Kuzma-based offer without Luol Deng being included.  It wasn't until the Lakers signed Lance Stephenson that a Brandon Ingram deal was officially closed, unless the Spurs were willing to take on Luol Deng which up until that point the Spurs were unwilling to do so.  So if the Lakers felt that they were bidding against themselves, why would they even consider moving Ingram?

[CWood21]

34 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

but we would never know because the Lakers took Ingram and Kuzma off the table lmao

Ingram was never actually mentioned as being off the table, it was reported that he was never formally offered and that the Spurs coveted him.  But beyond that, nothing.  And Kuzma was reported to be "off the table" by Stephen A. Smith (not a reputable source) and around the same time the Lakers agreed to sign Rajon Rondo, at which point the Lakers couldn't make salaries work without including Luol Deng.  The Spurs had made that a non-starter.