Kawhi Leonard Traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

The Rockets aren't quite the Rockets either unless they retain Capela. 

I don't see how Lebron and Kawhi, along with the other pieces the Lakers have with Ball, Hart, KCP, Rondo etc wouldn't be able to at least compete with GS. 

That's the thing, the reason the Cavs haven't been able to compete the last few years is because of their lack of defense, and really lack of athletes. You aren't going to have much of a problem scoring with that team, and the defense would be so good and able to switch everything. Granted, Boogie changes some of that, but lets see how healthy he is first.They may not have beaten the Warriors, but I don't buy they couldn't be competitive with them or couldn't beat the Rockets. Seems like folks have forgot just how good Kawhi was. 

[seminoles1]

57 minutes ago, indifference said:

Raptors are betting on themselves like OKC did with PG. But there’s a huge difference between playing with Lowry and playing with Westbrook.

Toronto is better than OKC and Leonard doesn't have to worry about having a better teammate than him like PG; Leonard is the better teammate to all but 4 or 5 players in the NBA.

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, footbull3196 said:

This is why the raptors are the biggest joke in the world.  Trade one superstar for another and pretend to convince yourself that you put your team over the top

Superstar?  DeRozan?  What the hell?

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Maybe it was unlikely, but clearly something happened where the trade talks went nowhere. Could be the Lakers took Kuzma off the table for now and would have included him at a later time. I don't know, but multiple people reported he was off the table two weeks ago.

And now you are arguing that there was no reason to trade Ingram since Philly/Boston wasn't going to send some of their best assets, yet your initial premise was the Spurs had no intention of trading Kawhi to the Lakers. So what is it? And what are you trying to argue? Again, for the last time, don't tell me they had no intention of trading him to the Lakers when Ingram wasn't made available. Also, don't tell me the Lakers wanted to entire house for Kawhi after seeing what they settled for with the Raptors.

In the post Jim Buss-era, the Lakers have usually been pretty tight-lipped.  Hell, Woj didn't even have the Lakers pick until a few seconds before it was announced.  I mean, the Magic/LeBron meeting wasn't realized until after the fact.  If there's anyone whose getting a beat from the Lakers' FO, it's Ramona Shelbourne and it's been implied that she will get some nuggets from Jeanie Buss.

If the Lakers did make Kuzma off-limits and they weren't willing to deal Brandon Ingram, what kind of package could they put forth for the Spurs?  That's why Kuzma being off-limits makes no sense.  A Hart-based package isn't motivating the Spurs, and the Lakers' picks weren't making up that.  That's why it's unlikely that the Lakers actually made Kuzma off-limits.

It's a combination of both.  You want to imply it has to be one or the other, but the reality is it's probably a combination of both.  If the packages were even close, the Spurs were going to ship him from the East.  I mean, what would you consider a fair package from Philadelphia or Boston?  One of Tatum, Brown, or Fultz would have to be included.  What's the Lakers' comparable player?  Brandon Ingram.  So if the Sixers weren't offering Markelle Fultz and the Celtics weren't willing to develop Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown, why would the Lakers consider moving Brandon Ingram?  You pay what the market dictates.  But the Spurs supposedly kept a high price tag, which indicates to me that the Spurs had little to no interest in dealing with the Lakers, unless they were getting their package back.  The Lakers weren't giving up all that when the Sixers/Celtics weren't willing to put up their notable assets.

And you keep saying that he wasn't available during the entire trade discussions.  There's nobody reported that.  The initial report was that the Spurs coveted him, but the Lakers hadn't formally offered him up in a deal.  Then the report came out that the Sixers and Celtics weren't ponying up.  And then we heard that the Spurs' demands hadn't changed.  So the Lakers moved on.

[CWood21]

8 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

The Rockets aren't quite the Rockets either unless they retain Capela. 

I don't see how Lebron and Kawhi, along with the other pieces the Lakers have with Ball, Hart, KCP, Rondo etc wouldn't be able to at least compete with GS. 

Houston was dangerous because they could constantly switch.  And they had enough offensive weapons to keep it interesting.  Don't quite see that with the Lakers.

[seminoles1]

30 minutes ago, iLikeDefense said:

I’m not sure why some think Pop is going to make DD better than what he currently is. Pop had players like RJ and LMA and they never improved, they probably got worse tbh. 

Aldridge just had his best season.

[J-ALL-DAY]

7 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

In the post Jim Buss-era, the Lakers have usually been pretty tight-lipped.  Hell, Woj didn't even have the Lakers pick until a few seconds before it was announced.  I mean, the Magic/LeBron meeting wasn't realized until after the fact.  If there's anyone whose getting a beat from the Lakers' FO, it's Ramona Shelbourne and it's been implied that she will get some nuggets from Jeanie Buss.

If the Lakers did make Kuzma off-limits and they weren't willing to deal Brandon Ingram, what kind of package could they put forth for the Spurs?  That's why Kuzma being off-limits makes no sense.  A Hart-based package isn't motivating the Spurs, and the Lakers' picks weren't making up that.  That's why it's unlikely that the Lakers actually made Kuzma off-limits.

It's a combination of both.  You want to imply it has to be one or the other, but the reality is it's probably a combination of both.  If the packages were even close, the Spurs were going to ship him from the East.  I mean, what would you consider a fair package from Philadelphia or Boston?  One of Tatum, Brown, or Fultz would have to be included.  What's the Lakers' comparable player?  Brandon Ingram.  So if the Sixers weren't offering Markelle Fultz and the Celtics weren't willing to develop Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown, why would the Lakers consider moving Brandon Ingram?  You pay what the market dictates.  But the Spurs supposedly kept a high price tag, which indicates to me that the Spurs had little to no interest in dealing with the Lakers, unless they were getting their package back.  The Lakers weren't giving up all that when the Sixers/Celtics weren't willing to put up their notable assets.

And you keep saying that he wasn't available during the entire trade discussions.  There's nobody reported that.  The initial report was that the Spurs coveted him, but the Lakers hadn't formally offered him up in a deal.  Then the report came out that the Sixers and Celtics weren't ponying up.  And then we heard that the Spurs' demands hadn't changed.  So the Lakers moved on.

It was widely reported the Lakers hadn't offered Ingram in any deal. You just said yourself Ingram is MUCH more valuable than Derozan correct? So then how would the packages be close if the Lakers made one around him? So the Spurs have that much hatred for the Lakers that they would rather have Derozan for potentially only two years when they could have had a 20 year old for at least five to six more years? Interesting.

Maybe Kuzma was on the table, but once Windhorst and Shelbourne reported even he is off the table, the writing was on the wall. The Lakers were the ones that didn't have much intention to trade for him this year. Either that, or they figured since Philly/Boston won't give up their young assets, then the Spurs will eventually come back to them and settle for a Ingram-less deal.

Don't try to get technical, the Lakers made offers to the Spurs and that much is confirmed....And none of the offers included Ingram. So yes, he was not available. How the hell is he available when he isn't being offered? 

The Spurs demands hadn't changed yet they settled for what they did. You're right, they weren't going to accept Ingram/picks/another piece for Kawhi, but they just accepted two years of derozan/one pick/Poetl.  

[Mossburg]

Spurs got a number of players who greatly underachieved. Even Rudy Gay was invisible. Maybe that happens with DD, but he is the best player the Spurs have brought over in I dunno....ever? Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but almost all of their moves outside of Aldridge were getting "value" guys most of whom never worked out, outside of lesser guys like Diaw. DeRozan is basically in his prime and has really embraced his teammates and his role to help make their jobs easier. Seems like a guy who should mesh great with that team IMO.

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 minutes ago, Mossburg said:

Spurs got a number of players who greatly underachieved. Even Rudy Gay was invisible. Maybe that happens with DD, but he is the best player the Spurs have brought over in I dunno....ever? Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but almost all of their moves outside of Aldridge were getting "value" guys most of whom never worked out, outside of lesser guys like Diaw. DeRozan is basically in his prime and has really embraced his teammates and his role to help make their jobs easier. Seems like a guy who should mesh great with that team IMO.

I thought Gay looked good late in the year and was okay in the playoffs. At least made KD work to get his buckets. But dude was coming off an Achilles and isn't in his prime anymore. And even when he was in his prime, it is debatable just how valuable he is to a team.

But yeah, not like the Spurs have been getting great free agents or trading for all stars. Aldridge and Derozan are the only two. While most teams are eliminating the mid-range, the Spurs are adding to it LOL. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. LIS, I like that they aligned everything together and will go for it in the next two years and then start their rebuild. Hell of a run. Would it have been better if they got a young potential star? Of course, but when that wasn't possible, they had to do something like this. 

[indifference]

20 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Toronto is better than OKC and Leonard doesn't have to worry about having a better teammate than him like PG; Leonard is the better teammate to all but 4 or 5 players in the NBA.

Leonard doesn’t come off as a guy that has to be the #1 option. Less pressure to deal with. Its not an ideal situation for him because he wants to play in LA. Toronto being a better overall team talent wise is fine but its not by much of a margin to win a title. So its moot.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

It was widely reported the Lakers hadn't offered Ingram in any deal. You just said yourself Ingram is MUCH more valuable than Derozan correct? So then how would the packages be close if the Lakers made one around him? So the Spurs have that much hatred for the Lakers that they would rather have Derozan for potentially only two years when they could have had a 20 year old for at least five to six more years? Interesting.

Maybe Kuzma was on the table, but once Windhorst and Shelbourne reported even he is off the table, the writing was on the wall. The Lakers were the ones that didn't have much intention to trade for him this year. Either that, or they figured since Philly/Boston won't give up their young assets, then the Spurs will eventually come back to them and settle for a Ingram-less deal.

Don't try to get technical, the Lakers made offers to the Spurs and that much is confirmed....And none of the offers included Ingram. So yes, he was not available. How the hell is he available when he isn't being offered? 

The Spurs demands hadn't changed yet they settled for what they did. You're right, they weren't going to accept Ingram/picks/another piece for Kawhi, but they just accepted two years of derozan/one pick/Poetl.  

First off, when did the Raptors get mentioned as legitimate threat to acquire Kawhi Leonard?  It wasn't until a few days ago that Toronto was viewed as a real suitor for Kawhi Leonard.  At which point, the Lakers had already used up their cap space needed to help acquire Kawhi Leonard.   That means, if the Lakers were to acquire Kawhi Leonard that Luol Deng would have to be dealt in some fashion.  Simply stretching him wouldn't have created the necessary cap space to take on Kawhi's contract.  So after they signed Lance Stephenson with JaVale McGee with cap space instead of the Room Exception and veteran minimum, Luol Deng had to be dealt.  But that was a non-starter for San Antonio.  The Lakers essentially felt like they were bidding against themselves, and they clearly got the vibe that San Antonio had no real desire to trade Kawhi to the Lakers.

And it's not being technical.  You discuss players back and forth, and try and see if you come up with a framework of a deal.  It wasn't until after the Sixers/Celtics weren't reportedly willing to include their assets, why should the Lakers?  They accepted the DeRozan package because it was the best one out there, which isn't saying much.  Sixers weren't offering Fultz, Boston wasn't offering Tatum/Brown, and the Lakers weren't willing to deal Ingram.  What package should San Antonio have accepted?  San Antonio was literally running out of suitors.  They had almost no options left.

[RavensTillIDie]

I think you guys are underestimating the overall effect of Pop and his coaching staff on player development. DeRozan is certainly no Kawhi, and he'll never come close to being the same type of defender, but to say he can't improve under Pop's tutelage is disingenuous to the work this man has put in over the years. And let's not forget the other player going over in this transaction,  Jakob Poeltl. Pau Gasol isn't really a full time starter at this point in his career and Poeltl has the potential to be a great modern day big, especially next to a guy like LMA. Combine that with their overall depth and Spurs are still going to still be making noise in the West next year.

Murray/Mills
DeRozan/Belinelli/Manu
Gay/Walker
LMA/Bertans/Cunningham
Poeltl/Gasol

Not a bad outcome given their hands were tied with Leonard forcing his way out.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, RavensTillIDie said:

I think you guys are underestimating the overall effect of Pop and his coaching staff on player development. DeRozan is certainly no Kawhi, and he'll never come close to being the same type of defender, but to say he can't improve under Pop's tutelage is disingenuous to the work this man has put in over the years. And let's not forget the other player going over in this transaction,  Jakob Poeltl. Pau Gasol isn't really a full time starter at this point in his career and Poeltl has the potential to be a great modern day big, especially next to a guy like LMA. Combine that with their overall depth and Spurs are still going to still be making noise in the West next year.

Murray/Mills
DeRozan/Belinelli/Manu
Gay/Walker
LMA/Bertans/Cunningham
Poeltl/Gasol

Not a bad outcome given their hands were tied with Leonard forcing his way out.

Sorry, you don't change a zebras stripes 9 years in the league.  He's a high usage guard who doesn't shoot the ball particularly well.

[RavensTillIDie]

Just now, CWood21 said:

Sorry, you don't change a zebras stripes 9 years in the league.  He's a high usage guard who doesn't shoot the ball particularly well.

But I doubt they're going to try and turn him into something he's not. He's still going to be a high usage guard who takes the majority of his shots from the mid range, but he can certainly stand to improve as a defender and a passer under Pop in the Spurs system.

[J-ALL-DAY]

You really think the Spurs and Raptors have just been talking recently and haven't been talking for the past few weeks? The Lakers may not have seen the Raptors as big threats and that could be the reason why they pulled Kuzma. But it was reported on June 29th that the Lakers have not offered Ingram in any trade discussion....So that was before any of the free agent moves the Lakers made. And they got the vibe that the San Antonio wasn't interested in trading Kawhi to the Lakers? What does San Antonio do if Ingram is offered then? Do they still have the same vibes? This wasn't unlike any negotiation where one team demands more than they realistically expect to get back and the other team offers something less than they expect to deal. You can't tell me Popovich hates the Lakers so much that he would have passed on a Ingram centered deal for something less. Ingram could have potentially been the Spurs next star. While Derozan will be there for probably no longer than two years.