Jump to content

Hard Knocks Discussion

Mind Character

By Mind Character
in Cleveland Browns

Recommended Posts

Thomas5737

Thomas5737

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Mind Character said:

You Fire Huers just can't help yourselves... LOL

"Baker it's good to start your days work early" -- Hue..... "Look at Hue throwing his players under the bus again" -- Fire Huer/Hue-ist

I just never understood why he was looked at as a QB guru. Flacco? Turning Dalton around? That and  his record here and how he talked about some players and F.O. personnel to the media.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BleedTheClock

BleedTheClock

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

I just never understood why he was looked at as a QB guru. Flacco? Turning Dalton around? That and  his record here and how he talked about some players and F.O. personnel to the media.

Well he did make Pryor decent in Oakland, which was kind of amazing given the makeup of their roster at the time. And Flacco looked like a beast during the Hue years. And Dalton had a significant turnaround under Hue. It made sense at least theoretically.

 

And who knows? Maybe he can develop a QB. Deshone Kizer was an absolute abortion last year. I'm pretty sure God himself couldn't have fixed Kizer. He was throwing it right at 2-3 defenders with no WR in the area...on multiple occasions! That's a kind of stupid you can't really fix. And Cody Kessler is not any better.

 

I wanted Hue Jackson to be fired after last season, but I'm not completely sold on the idea that he isn't great at working with QB's. He's got two serviceable ones right now (at the very least), so if he fails to get production from these two guys given the other talent around them, then we can make the claim that he's a false prophet of QB whispering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
buno67

buno67

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Um yes he did. 

I didn’t know Pryor was on the 2011 squad. Looked at the passing stats for that year and Pryor never attempted a pass. So I thought Pryor was 2012. So it’s better to say that Hue never really had an impact on Pryor as a QB. Pryor didn’t look serviceble until 2013. That was 2 years after Hue left. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mind Character

Mind Character

Posted
  • Author
Posted

@Thomas5737

Regarding Hue and QB coaching history and why he's been considered a "QB expert" in league circles, I've replied (in long non-quality post format) to you before it seems to a similar question from you in January... here's that post again should you want to waste time going through it again.

I don't want to muddy the message board waters with a Fire-Huer vs Non-Fire Huer debate. We've had those Ad Nauseam.

Let's get back to Hard Knocks...

On 1/19/2018 at 6:50 PM, Mind Character said:

A Complete History of Hue's QB coaching.

1. Jake Plummer Arizona State (1995): Jake himself credits Hue for helping rain in his wild style, improving his mechanics, and growing intellectually at understanding defenses. Made such an impact on Hue that 22 years later Jake went to the AD in Arizona State this year to suggest Hue be hired ASU if he was fired despite a losing NFL record. "He did a lot for my advancement and evolution as a quarterback. He maximized my ability and gave me the skills and vision that got the NFL to see me as a big time prospect." Jake had an up and down career but played some great QB play later in his career. Was thrown to the wolves on the Cardinals with no help and was horrendous from a statistical standpoint. Most believe he had little arm talent but his talents were maximized from a coaching perspective.

With Hue his Junior year, had 17 TDs to 9 INTs but took a serious jump his senior year based on progression in mechanics to finish with 23 TDs to 9 INTs the next year.

 

2. Pat Barnes, California (1996): Under Hue he went from a marginal season to one of the better in all of college football.

  • Pre-Hue 1995: 197/362 for 2,685 yards with 17 TD vs 11 INT.
  • With Hue 1996: 250/420 for 3,499 yards with 31 TD vs 8 INT.

  Credited Hue as "making me believe I could get to the next level" and "opening my mind to how to really play in the WC offense."

Had a serious XFL career but did not have the physical characteristics the nfl desired then and despite being name 2nd team all american at QB only behind interestingly Jake Plummer.

3. Carson Palmer, USC (1997-2000): Contrary to popular belief and recency bias where Palmer became the prototypical pro passing prospect, Palmer was an unrefined piece of clay who had to be built from the feet up when arriving at USC. He was so bad that they decided to start a Joe Bauserman type QB named John Fox before handing the position to a raw inaccurate, turnover prone freshman. Carson Palmer credited Hue as being "the Best QB coach I ever had" even though the 2 didn't reunite in the pros until much later. The perfect throwing motion and efficient feet in the pocket Palmer had his final year at USC that made him the top pick.

4. From 2001 to 2007, Hue spent time as RBs coach, Offensive Coordiantor, and Wide receivers coach for various team.

5. Ravens- 2008-2009, Joe Flacco. Until in 2008, he became the QB coach for the Ravens and Joe Flacco. The coaching job Hue did with Flacco was regarded as one of the finest coaching jobs of a rookie QB w/ Ozzie Newsome deeming Hue "teaching worth its weight in gold" and John Harbaugh calling Hue's hire "...a game changer." Harbaugh went on to say "Nobody has more knowledge or has had more success with developing rookie quarterbacks than Hue Jackson has had as a coach. We have seen it firsthand." Flacco would say " He allows you to go out there and play fast, and free, and wants you to go out there and play with emotion and let it all go. I think that his coaching style and his offensive philosophy allows the quarterback to do that." Flacco said under Hue he was able to get over mental hurdles he had coming out of Delaware. Flacco had a lot of confidence, work habit issues (documented as always showing up late until Hue instilled a stringent regimen), and mechanical footwork issues coming out of Delaware. The improvement from year 1 to year 2 led Flacco to an unexpected good rookie year, but a really great follow up second year that is statistically one of Joe Flacco's better careers in his entire career.

6. The Ravens coaching Job earned Hue a shot at offensive coordinator with the raiders as one of the up and coming offensive minds in football. His work as a coordinator earned him a HC job in Oakland for one year in which an undermanned team with Owner/Personnel issues started off fast but due to injury of QBs faultered to 8-8 missing the playoffs. Jason Campbell was headed for a career year statistically before injury and Hue made a trade for Carson Palmer that may have worked out had the whole thing not been blown up (i.e., Carson had many good years left in Arizona after that). Amy Trask and other football execs in Oakland speak unflinchingly positive of Hue's  time there as OC and developer of talent. Al Davis died, Hue was fired.

Oakland:

You obviously didn't follow the Raiders 2010-2011 that intently and are revising the Oakland experience to fit your belief on Hue resulting in ignoring objective facts.

The Raiders offense that ranked 30th the year before Hue became OC became the 7th ranked rushing defense; and the 18th ranked passing offense with Jason Campbell at QB and the potent star-studded receiving core of Jacoby Ford, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Louis Murphy, and Zach Miller. Due to some inefficiencies on third down, various DVOA computations put that offense anywhere from 11th to 23rd when accounting for situational efficiency.

Qualitatively, people in Oakland (sports writers, media, personnel execs) and around the league thought Hue made chicken salad out of sh*t and maximized a retread in Jason Campbell with a collection of subpar receiving talent.

He then gets the HC job due to his offensive efforts.

The team gets off to an unexpected hot 7-4 start despite losing their best offensive player (TE Zach Miller) to free agency in the offseason replacing him with JAG TE Kevin Boss. The offense also loses their now best player (Darren Mcfadden) for the season after game 7 and their starting QB (Jason Campbell) being lost for the season after the 6th week.

The Raiders bring in Carson Palmer out of retirement off the couch midseason via trade who struggles down the stretch, but the offense with RB Michael Bush, TE Kevin Boss, rookie WR Denarius Moore, and JAG WR Derrius Heyward-Bey STILL reaches as high as # 3 in DVOA Offensive Efficiency, but loses steam after losing Mcfadden ending the season ranked anywhere from 8th-14th in Offensive Efficiency depending on the computation.

With Hue as OC or HC, the raiders with a below average talent team were 16-16 with top half of the league offenses.

They went 1-4 in their last 5 games mostly due to defensive struggles. Hue had an infamous final press conference and it was game over.  After he left, in 3 seasons, the Raiders went 8-28 causing fans to create a petition and website for Mark Davis to rehire Hue Jackson. So, the claim that he regressed the Raiders is unfounded.

7. Hue doesn't resurface as a QB coach and OC until 2012/2013 with the Bengals/Andy Dalton. There he does what is thought to be one of the finer jobs maximizing talent by working with Andy Dalton first as QB Coach and OC to help Dalton have a career and what some though was an MVP type season until Dalton gets injured at the end of the season, AJ Mccaron starts, and a series of terrible penalties on the Bengals capsized their season.

According to Dalton himself: " Being with Hue has taken my regimen, my technique, how I see the game, how I feel the game to another level, but more importantly I'm not in my head I just play and have confidence in my ability and let my football instincts take over. He believes in me as much as I do. He and coach Zampese together we have something great going."

Without Hue, the entire Bengals operation unraveled last year and his mark was so strong on the organization that fans, ownership alike entertained the possibility of bringing him back there despite his historic role in losing for the Browns.

8. Browns 2016: Hue is hired as HC and hires Pep Hamilton as QB coach. Hue wants Goff (eval correct) and likes Wentz, but relents to the Money Ball trade down that the personnel execs wanted in the first place. Fair compromise ensues and Hue in 1st year coach speak encouragement of the players acquired says "Trust me" when the media and whole football world acts as if Cody Kessler shouldn't even be in the league. Cody plays well despite trash around him and his personal deficiencies. Hue yanks Cody in a game causing the media and fans to think he's ruining the QBs confidence.

The Trash Roster on Offense was as follows:

RB: Crowell

WRs: Terrelle Pryor, Ricardo Louis, Andrew Hawkins, Corey Coleman

OLs: JT, Drango(Rookie), Erving, Greco, Pasztor

TE: Gary Barnidge

9. Browns 2017: Hue wanted Trubisky, Mahomes, and texted Deshaun Watson "to be ready" according to Watson...Hue denied it. He ends up with Kizer and puts all of the offense on his plate to test Kizer's limits early in the season to the fans and media chagrinl. Hue sick of losing makes short sighted judgments that are compounded by  numerous inexplicable turnovers and inaccuracies by Kizer. Kizer was never ready. A receiving corps of Kenny Britt, Bryce Treggs, Kasen Williams, Ricardo Louis, Sammie Coates, Rashard Higgins etc prove to be one of the worst corps we've ever had. He yanks Kizer repeatedly because the QB keeps making the same turnover mistakes on back to back plays. Media and fans say he's destroying the QB because QBs are tempermental creatures that don't deserve to sit when they make mistakes even though every other position on the team suffers that fate when they underperform. Most believe now Hue is the worst QB coach/OC in NFL history, shouldn't be anywhere near Cleveland and has to be fired.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE BEST FIRE HUE EVIDENCE THAT EXISTS:

Is this year. The 2017 season.

Not his time with the Raiders, Falcons, Bengals, or Ravens.

Not the RG3 nonguaranteed contract gamble on a previous QB1, not wanting Goff over Wentz, not going 1-15 in 2016 with rookie 4th round pick Cody Kessler with Cam Erving, Greco, and Austin Pazstor.

Not that he wanted Mahomes, Trubisky, and Malik Hooker over Deshaun Watson, but still texted him and would've to select Deshaun over trading down.

The Best Evidence is the case of Deshone Kizer, situational football mismanagement, allowing a year of frustrations to boil over to the point where he even allowed others to perceive that he was blaming the talent of the roster on the losing, and making short sighted decisions to win now that didn't fit the developmental plan of a young QB.

Benching Deshone Kizer was not bad as every position on the field gets benched/rookie or not for consecutive catastrophic play.

However, it's hard to argue that Kizer wasn't maximized given the results that the coaching on Accuracy, footwork, situational football, and turnovers did not take root.

That all can't be blamed on Kizer the rookie QB, and Hue had a major part in that. Ultimately, if the coach's coaching doesn't take root and manifest in the play of the player then the coach deserves responsibility.

It does make sense that after going 1-15 that it was hard to watch the redzone and catastrophic INTs of Kizer in 3 straight games.

So, when making a fire Hue claim, look no further than this year.

Yeah...I remember the story vividly...everyone does.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
big poppa pump

big poppa pump

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

@Thomas5737

Regarding Hue and QB coaching history and why he's been considered a "QB expert" in league circles, I've replied (in long non-quality post format) to you before it seems to a similar question from you in January... here's that post again should you want to waste time going through it again.

I don't want to muddy the message board waters with a Fire-Huer vs Non-Fire Huer debate. We've had those Ad Nauseam.

Let's get back to Hard Knocks...

 

I've missed "skimming"  through these posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing


×
×
  • Create New...