Hall of Fame - Looking Ahead at WRs

[TENINCH]

1 minute ago, NVRamsFan said:

Never anything special? When he retired he was 2nd all time in Yards. He put up damn good numbers with some horrible QB's before Warner and the GSOT ever came around.

He hung around and put up some yards. He wasn't elite at anything and was rarely the best receiver on the field when he played.

[Danger]

11 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Isaac Bruce (2017-18 finalist)

Torry Holt (2015-18 semifinalist)

Hines Ward (2017-18 semifinalist)

Chad Johnson (2017-2018 nominee)

Reggie Wayne^

Andre Johnson^

Steve Smith Sr^

Calvin Johnson^

Anquan Boldin^

Larry Fitzgerald*

Brandon Marshall*

Power ranking them:

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Torry Holt 
4. Steve Smith Sr.
5. Reggie Wayne
6. Andre Johnson

The others don't belong in the hall IMO.

[tom cody]

Bruce and Holt will get in. C.Johnson and Fitz as well. Wayne and A.Johnson are wait and see for me but probably get in. Don't know about Boldin or Marshall. 

[Forge]

1 minute ago, Danger said:

Power ranking them:

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Torry Holt 
4. Steve Smith Sr.
5. Reggie Wayne
6. Steve Smith Sr.

The others don't belong in the hall IMO.

But Steve Smith gets in twice?  

[Danger]

Just now, Forge said:

But Steve Smith gets in twice?  

Whoops, meant to put Andre Johnson last.

[Danger]

Just now, tom cody said:

Bruce and Holt will get in. C.Johnson and Fitz as well. Wayne and A.Johnson are wait and see for me but probably get in. Don't know about Boldin or Marshall. 

I think Bruce will get in, despite my thinking he shouldn't. 

I think Reggie Wayne will have a better shot than Chad Johnson, wasn't as much of a distraction and his team had much more post season success than Chad ever had. Their numbers during their primes are nearly identical.

Andre Johnson had considerably more yards, but fewer TDs. That said, who the hell was actually throwing him the ball his whole career? Amazing he put up the numbers he did with the scrubs around him most of his career.
 

[showtime]

2 hours ago, TENINCH said:

He hung around and put up some yards. He wasn't elite at anything and was rarely the best receiver on the field when he played.

"He hung around and put up some yards."

LOL

[showtime]

2 hours ago, tom cody said:

Bruce and Holt will get in. C.Johnson and Fitz as well. Wayne and A.Johnson are wait and see for me but probably get in. Don't know about Boldin or Marshall. 

It would be sweet for Holt and Bruce to get in at the same time.  For some reason when I saw, "C. Johnson", I thought you were talking about Chad Johnson at first haha.

[john305]

5 hours ago, lancerman said:

Lots of peeps underestimating the log jam at WR. Fitz is the only one who won’t wait more than 2-3 years imo. But I’d be shocked if he made it first ballot. Megatron will wait likely 4-5 years. Bruce and Holt better get in soon or they are screwed. Wayne is super borderline. Nobody else gets in on that list 

This Fitz is the only one who will probably get in 1st ballot or within a couple years of retiring.

When was Jimmy Smith considered an elite WR or Anquan Boldin? Really good WR's sure but not the upper echelon.

[Forge]

39 minutes ago, showtime said:

"He hung around and put up some yards."

LOL

His comment seems a little derisive, but I kind of get where he's coming from. Bruce's rate states aren't amazing or anything (though they do appear to be slightly better against the field, though I haven't done the math) and in no way that much better than the other guys listed for the most part, he just happened to play more games. He was never a first team all pro (you could make the case he deserved it in 1995 over Herman Moore, but their seasons were remarkably similar, so I don't think that you can go wrong either way) and only a 4 time pro bowler.  I mean, compare him to steve smith -  YPG separated by 1. Bruce had 600 more yards receiving over 4 more games. Bruce had 2 more total touchdowns. Smith also played 2 more playoff games but had 5 more touchdowns and averaged 7 yards more per game (10 if you only count his prime years with Carolina). Is there a real difference there? 

Bruce and Wayne's rate stats are pretty similar (68.2 ypg vs 68, .41 td/g vs .39). Bruce did have a significant advantage in yards per catch (1.5 more), but Wayne had nearly 50 more receptions in fewer games. Bruce has a much smaller sample in the playoffs, but his numbers were slightly better on a rate perspective, but small sample size. I'd give Bruce a slight edge over Wayne, but I don't think it's by much. Wayne was a 6 time pro bowler and 1 time first team all pro. 

Andre Johnson averaged 5 yards more per game, though obviously tds were a problem throughout this career (.41 td/g for bruce, .379/g for Johnson). Johnson had 40 more receptions in 30 fewer games, though again Bruce has a very big advantage in yards per reception and 1000 more total yards, but again, you can chalk that up to largely the last two "hang on" years with SF. If you take just the time with their main franchises, bruce was 942 / 14109 / 84 over 197 games, while Johnson was 1012 / 13597 / 64 over only 169 games. Johnson was a 7 time pro bowler and 2 time all pro. Johnson also lead the league in receptions 2 times, yards 2 times, compared to Bruce only leading the league in receiving yards once. I'd say that Johnson was actually the better receiver even though the numbers may not bear that out completely. 

Now admittedly, Bruce was also hurt a bit by missing nearly a season (15 games) over 97/98 right in his prime, but  Smith missed 15 games in 2004, Andre Johnson missed 22 games between 2005 - 2011, so outside of Wayne, who was remarkably durable, all three of those guys could have better numbers than what they ended up with given that the time missed was during their prime. 

[showtime]

3 minutes ago, Forge said:

His comment seems a little derisive, but I kind of get where he's coming from. Bruce's rate states aren't amazing or anything (though they do appear to be slightly better against the field, though I haven't done the math) and in no way that much better than the other guys listed for the most part, he just happened to play more games. He was never a first team all pro, only a 4 time pro bowler.  I mean, compare him to steve smith -  YPG separated by 1. Bruce had 600 more yards receiving over 4 more games. Bruce had 2 more total touchdowns. Smith also played 2 more playoff games but had 5 more touchdowns and averaged 7 yards more per game (10 if you only count his prime years with Carolina). Is there a real difference there? 

Bruce and Wayne's rate stats are pretty similar (68.2 ypg vs 68, .41 td/g vs .39). Bruce did have a significant advantage in yards per catch (1.5 more), but Wayne had nearly 50 more receptions in fewer games. Bruce has a much smaller sample in the playoffs, but his numbers were slightly better on a rate perspective, but small sample size. I'd give Bruce a slight edge over Wayne, but I don't think it's by much. Wayne was a 6 time pro bowler and 1 time first team all pro. 

Andre Johnson averaged 5 yards more per game, though obviously tds were a problem throughout this career (.41 td/g for bruce, .379/g for Johnson). Johnson had 40 more receptions in 30 fewer games, though again Bruce has a very big advantage in yards per reception and 1000 more total yards, but again, you can chalk that up to largely the last two "hang on" years with SF. If you take just the time with their main franchises, bruce was 942 / 14109 / 84 over 197 games, while Johnson was 1012 / 13597 / 64 over only 169 games. Johnson was a 7 time pro bowler and 2 time all pro. Johnson also lead the league in receptions 2 times, yards 2 times, compared to Bruce only leading the league in receiving yards once. I'd say that Johnson was actually the better receiver even though the numbers may not bear that out completely. 

Now admittedly, Bruce was also hurt a bit by missing nearly a season (15 games) over 97/98 right in his prime, but  Smith missed 15 games in 2004, Andre Johnson missed 22 games between 2005 - 2011, so outside of Wayne, who was remarkably durable, all three of those guys could have better numbers than what they ended up with given that the time missed was during their prime. 

I mean, Isaac Bruce caught 119 passes, had 1,781 yards and scored 13 touchdowns, yet he wasn't an all-pro.  I'm not trying to say that Bruce was an all-time dominant receiver, but he was excellent.  His numbers state that he should be in the hall-of-fame.

The season Bruce put up in 1995 would be amazing in today's game and he would be a first team all-pro.  I think that year he got beat out by Jerry Rice and Herman Moore.  Maybe Cris Carter as well.  That's pretty unbelievable. 

[Forge]

5 minutes ago, showtime said:

I mean, Isaac Bruce caught 119 passes, had 1,781 yards and scored 13 touchdowns, yet he wasn't an all-pro.  I'm not trying to say that Bruce was an all-time dominant receiver, but he was excellent.  His numbers state that he should be in the hall-of-fame.

The season Bruce put up in 1995 would be amazing in today's game and he would be a first team all-pro.  I think that year he got beat out by Jerry Rice and Herman Moore.  Maybe Cris Carter as well.  That's pretty unbelievable. 

I actually edited my post prior to your reply adding that, but even still, passing offenses were crazy that year and I don't know much that effectively changes in comparison to the other receivers. I don't think that anyone is trying to take away from Bruce, but I don't think it's wrong to note that he shouldn't be in a tier above a guy like Steve Smith or Andre Johnson (I probably would tier him ahead of Wayne). LIS, the original quote from Ten Inch was a little more derisive than I would have said, as I don't think his merits should be downplayed, but I do get the idea that he wasn't comparably better than some of the others to a large extent. 

[showtime]

2 minutes ago, Forge said:

I actually edited my post prior to your reply adding that, but even still, passing offenses were crazy that year and I don't know much that effectively changes in comparison to the other receivers. I don't think that anyone is trying to take away from Bruce, but I don't think it's wrong to note that he shouldn't be in a tier above a guy like Steve Smith or Andre Johnson (I probably would tier him ahead of Wayne). LIS, the original quote from Ten Inch was a little more derisive than I would have said, as I don't think his merits should be downplayed, but I do get the idea that he wasn't comparably better than some of the others to a large extent. 

I don't have a problem with Bruce being lumped into the same category as Andre Johnson and some of the other guys.  It's just really dismissive to say, "He hung around and put up some yards."  That doesn't sound like a way to describe a hall-of-famer, probably because he doesn't think Bruce is a hall-of-famer and that's where I disagree with him.

[frenchie]

What about Wes Welker?  903 rec. 9924 yards, 50 TDs.  5x Pro Bowl, 4x All-Pro, 3 Super Bowl Appearances. Was also one of the league's better kick returners early in his career.

Sure, he has about a couple thousand yards and 25 TDs fewer than most of the other players listed, but let's remember, the first few seasons of Welker's career were wasted in SD and MIA, then concussions cut it short.  90% of his career stats were achieved in only 7 years; Most of these other guys listed were 12-14 year starters... 

I'm not saying he belongs ahead of anyone listed, but I do think he should get some consideration.

 

 

[ET80]

Just now, frenchie said:

What about Wes Welker?  903 rec. 9924 yards, 50 TDs.  5x Pro Bowl, 4x All-Pro, 3 Super Bowl Appearances. Was also one of the league's better kick returners early in his career.

Sure, he has about a couple thousand yards and 25 TDs fewer than most of the other players listed, but let's remember, the first few seasons of Welker's career were wasted in SD and MIA, then concussions cut it short.  90% of his career stats were achieved in only 7 years; Most of these other guys listed were 12-14 year starters... 

I'm not saying he belongs ahead of anyone listed, but I do think he should get some consideration.

 

 

People don't agree with me, but I think so. He's the reason teams are so desperate to find a genuine slot WR - a guy with a specific skill set that plays strictly out of the slot, not just a #3 WR.