Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[Leader]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

And I quoted you. And someone quoted me (Forge) and someone may quote him. But back to my question, it's a Ballista of sorts so it wasn't unrealistic.

You may have noted I never said it was.

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, thrILL! said:

I don’t understand why they had Dany etc ambushed like that.  Even if Dany doesn’t notice Euron’s navy, one of the dragons would have.  Don’t they have ppl on their perimeter whose sole jobs are to look out for this kind of scenario?  What good are those tall towers?

Honestly they could have spotted the ships and then just had them engage directly.  Dany is cocky AF and thinks she’s about to burn these fools headed straight toward them.  But instead one of them gets killed, Dany is forced to peel off to safety.  Then Euron’s ship shreds her fleet of ships.  

There was no need to disguise it just for the shock of Rhaegar getting hit.  

They have people on the ships that are supposed to spot any other ships coming into view.

[Forge]

8 minutes ago, thrILL! said:

I don’t understand why they had Dany etc ambushed like that.  Even if Dany doesn’t notice Euron’s navy, one of the dragons would have.  Don’t they have ppl on their perimeter whose sole jobs are to look out for this kind of scenario?  What good are those tall towers?

Honestly they could have spotted the ships and then just had them engage directly.  Dany is cocky AF and thinks she’s about to burn these fools headed straight toward them.  But instead one of them gets killed, Dany is forced to peel off to safety.  Then Euron’s ship shreds her fleet of ships.  

There was no need to disguise it just for the shock of Rhaegar getting hit.  

She really shouldn't have been. 

Though there is a Preston Jacobs video where he does think that Euron is setting up a major ambush in the next book (he calls it "the battle of blood") that is pretty convincing and impressive, though he thinks that ambush is being set up for the Redwynes and Hightowers, not Dany

[Calvert28]

2 minutes ago, Leader said:

You may have noted I never said it was.

As far as I could tell his problem's weren't with the weapons themselves but how accurate they were with them. And he's right, to hit something that far away is incredibly unrealistic.

[Leader]

1 minute ago, Calvert28 said:

As far as I could tell his problem's weren't with the weapons themselves but how accurate they were with them. And he's right, to hit something that far away is incredibly unrealistic.

Perhaps so. A weapons systems expert I'm not.

The thrust of my comment - to explain it - was that its odd to hold the weapon delivery system to excruciating detail and accuracy -- while bypassing the fact they were developed to shoot down something thats only ever existed in the minds of fictional writers.

If you can stretch your imagination far enough to accept there are flying, fire breathing dragons to be shot down - perhaps you can extend some of that imagination to the weapons system and enjoy the story telling ride a bit more.

 

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Yeah, I dislike that they are going in this direction with regards to at least not even bringing it up with Dany and Jon. Like, how do you not at least bring it up? That's just bad writing. Just come up with an actual reason that it won't work or that the two parties don't want to do it. There's really not one I can think of given that particularly Jon is a "service to the realm" type, but maybe that is the reason they chose this route - they couldn't figure out why Jon and Dany would be opposed to it lol. 

The secondary option would be that they don't marry and with Dany supposedly being barren, Jon (or Jon's eventual eldest child) would be the heir to the throne and successor for Dany, which is another very easy solution. Jon doesn't want the throne, and it's not like his abdication would be unprecedented. Duncan did it to be with Jenny. 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but they pretty expressly mentioned a few reasons why a marriage doesn't really solve any of the problems. When Tyrion and Varys talk they mention the incest element, which may not be okay for northerners. They also address (directly, in Tyrion and Varys's conversation, and indirectly, through Dany's talks with Jon) the fact that Dany clearly does not want to share power. Dany freaked out about Jon's lineage because she knows many, if not most of the people, will want Jon to rule instead if they know. She wants that throne and power for herself. If they make it public who Jon is and then marry them, Dany has a constant power struggle, whether Jon tries to make it one or not, as people try to defer to Jon over her, either because he's a man, he's a northerner, he has a better claim to the throne, or just because he's a better man.

Dany would be all for marrying Jon, as long as everyone just knows him as Jon Snow, as then he's just the husband of a queen. The second he becomes known as a Targaryen, he's an enemy, at least politically, not a potential spouse, because no matter what they do, he's a threat to her authority, intentionally or otherwise. They even mention that he could keep her in check, but she doesn't want to be kept in check. She wants ultimate authority.

That's why the solution in Dany's eyes is just for Jon to not tell anyone. It keeps Jon from being a threat to her authority. Makes the marriage safe for her. But if the information is out, that marriage doesn't stop Jon from having a better core claim to the throne. In the eyes of many she'd be a secondary queen to Jon's rightful rule, and she won't have that.

[Jakuvious]

37 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

As far as I could tell his problem's weren't with the weapons themselves but how accurate they were with them. And he's right, to hit something that far away is incredibly unrealistic.

For what it's worth, real life ballistae were actually incredibly accurate with substantial force up to over 100 yards. Provided the person aiming it was well-trained. The main appeal of a ballista over other siege was accuracy. It can get less accurate beyond a certain range because then you need to arc it to get that far, so you're adding an extra element to aim, but I can't begin to guess how far away they were from the dragon. But, you could get a few hundred yards of range if you arc it right. Maybe 500 yards or so. Assuming that all the ships were firing at Rhaegal, 3 or 4 hitting isn't unreasonable.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Leader said:

I'm not sure if you're busting ^^^^^ just for the sake of busting ^^^^^ and trying to be provocative - of if you're actually typing these comments and thinking you've got something going on here.....

So - if I've got this right - you've got issues with the engineering design, physics, plausibility, material composites, availability and ability to construct the weapons:

"Those weapons being able to drill a dragon in the neck from further away than the human eye can see......"

Something about those weapons aspects troubles your sense of logic, order, rationale and higher intellect, resulting in a less than enjoyable viewing experience.... 

AND YET -

You apparently have no trouble accepting that these troubling and unrealistic weapons were constructed in order to shoot down flying, fire breathing dragons.

The flying, fire breathing dragons part - they're okay as a facet of the story:

"Oh you wanna get all mystic and wizardly on me? Thats cool....flying, fire breathing dragons are cool.......but could we at least get the weapons systems right?" 

 

 

We've established dragons exist in this universe. 

We have not established that radar guided sidewinder missiles exist.

That's my beef. Admittedly it's not my biggest with this episode, or even particularly strong. I'm just putting it on the pile.

[AlexGreen#20]

45 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but they pretty expressly mentioned a few reasons why a marriage doesn't really solve any of the problems. When Tyrion and Varys talk they mention the incest element, which may not be okay for northerners. They also address (directly, in Tyrion and Varys's conversation, and indirectly, through Dany's talks with Jon) the fact that Dany clearly does not want to share power. Dany freaked out about Jon's lineage because she knows many, if not most of the people, will want Jon to rule instead if they know. She wants that throne and power for herself. If they make it public who Jon is and then marry them, Dany has a constant power struggle, whether Jon tries to make it one or not, as people try to defer to Jon over her, either because he's a man, he's a northerner, he has a better claim to the throne, or just because he's a better man.

Dany would be all for marrying Jon, as long as everyone just knows him as Jon Snow, as then he's just the husband of a queen. The second he becomes known as a Targaryen, he's an enemy, at least politically, not a potential spouse, because no matter what they do, he's a threat to her authority, intentionally or otherwise. They even mention that he could keep her in check, but she doesn't want to be kept in check. She wants ultimate authority.

That's why the solution in Dany's eyes is just for Jon to not tell anyone. It keeps Jon from being a threat to her authority. Makes the marriage safe for her. But if the information is out, that marriage doesn't stop Jon from having a better core claim to the throne. In the eyes of many she'd be a secondary queen to Jon's rightful rule, and she won't have that.

Excellent explanation

[LeeEvans]

2 hours ago, thrILL! said:

I don’t understand why they had Dany etc ambushed like that.  Even if Dany doesn’t notice Euron’s navy, one of the dragons would have.  Don’t they have ppl on their perimeter whose sole jobs are to look out for this kind of scenario?  What good are those tall towers?

Honestly they could have spotted the ships and then just had them engage directly.  Dany is cocky AF and thinks she’s about to burn these fools headed straight toward them.  But instead one of them gets killed, Dany is forced to peel off to safety.  Then Euron’s ship shreds her fleet of ships.  

There was no need to disguise it just for the shock of Rhaegar getting hit.  

It's just idiotic. She is flying on a clear day, she would basically have to try to not see an enemy fleet, especially considering they could see her. 

[oldman9er]

7 hours ago, Herbie_Hancock said:

So no more

tormund or??

 

also. Sex scene w Jamie and briene would’ve been great a season ago 

I get the feeling Tormund and Co. will show up late and at a convenient time to help turn the tide.

I'm still confused on Jamie's last discussion with Brienne prior to leaving Winterfell. Was he trying to fake her/us out by what his plan was?  

[oldman9er]

6 hours ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

Agreed. Tbh though, the last two books haven’t lived up to books 1-3 either...

 

Abstract thought:

I find that most good series are at their best in the first few seasons, and go quickly downhill after that. Usually deteriorates in similar ways too. They get you to care about the character development.. and then have these cared for allies turn on each other to create as much drama and tension as possible. 

HATED to see another dragon fall. Didn't like this episode much at all. Just a real negative collection of Empire Strikes Back to try and fall asleep after viewing.   

[seminoles1]

12 minutes ago, oldman9er said:

I'm still confused on Jamie's last discussion with Brienne prior to leaving Winterfell. Was he trying to fake her/us out by what his plan was?  

He's not faking at all. It's almost like Stockholm syndrome at this point. At this moment he is not planning on killing Cersei.

[mse326]

8 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

There was no logic to that. Before their swords got set on fire (something they didn't know what was going to happen) the Dorthraki had no weapons capable of killing a white Walker. They were always going to get killed and changed and end up changing back. 

It was moronic. It was moronic to the point it was illogical unless we accept that the people making the decision have a cognitive disability.

The weapons thing I agree with. However, Gendry and the smiths in Westeros don't have experience making Dothraki weapons, especially out of dragonglass. Dothraki also don't know how to fight with broad swords. 

Yeah, it was dumb, but the logic in show has some backing to it.

We should also point out, IIRC, you don't need dragon glass to kill wights, which is who they were going against. You can sort of incapacitate with a normal weapon (you can lop off anything but everything still moves it able) and the best way to ultimately kill them is with fire. While maybe not fully ideal normal weapons weren't that big of a disadvantage against the army they were attacking

[oldman9er]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

That's why the solution in Dany's eyes is just for Jon to not tell anyone. It keeps Jon from being a threat to her authority.

I dunno; just feels like unnecessary drama. First, maybe they need to win the final battle before they cross that bridge on who rules what. Maybe focus on the this issue first.

Beyond that, what man with a wife doesn't actually get owned by her authority anyway? We can all kid ourselves, but c'mon. So long as she isn't an arse about it, strong men typically don't have issue with deferring power to the little Mrs. If they love each other, which they seem to. She can wear the pants in the relationship. Jon DGAF so long as she makes fair, moral choices. 

10 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

He's not faking at all. It's almost like Stockholm syndrome at this point. At this moment he is not planning on killing Cersei.

Well, I have no idea still on what they conversation was about, or what his intent really is.