Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[Forge]

It should be noted that at times, the succession line has been blurred and they have gone in different directions. Inheritance can be somewhat pliable. But something similar to this has happened in the past when Baelor Breakspear died protecting Dunk. He was the heir apparent to his father, Dareon the Good. Dareon was still ruling when Baelor died, so the heir apparent became Baelor's son, Valaar. However, he never got to reign as both he and Baelor's other son both died hours before Dareon during the great spring sickness. 

Quote

 

While participating in a rare trial by seven, Baelor's youngest brother Maekar accidentally dealt him a severe blow to the head with his mace. Baelor had entered the trial wearing his son's lighter armor, which did not fit properly and didn't provide adequate protection. Maekar had not meant to harm Baelor, and Baelor seemed fine at first, acknowledging that it was an accident. Soon, however, Baelor started behaving drunkenly, and he actually had a severe concussion from which he died in a matter of hours. The guilt of accidentally killing his own brother haunted Maekar for the rest of his days.

When he died, his son Valarr became heir-apparent to the Iron Throne, but he and his younger brother Matarys both died during the Great Spring Sickness only hours before Daeron II. This lead to Daeron II being succeeded by his second son, Aerys I.

 

 

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, JBURGE25 said:

I'm not going to say anything obviously but those spoilers that someone leaked a few weeks ago for episode 6 are real. Kinda bummed out that I basically have to wait 2 weeks to see new stuff. I am a weak man

If the leaks are real (and presumably they are), it shouldn't take away from your enjoyment of the show. It's still going to be an epic season.

[scar988]

1 hour ago, seminoles1 said:

Question...can Jon legitimize himself?

yes.

 

 

[MacReady]

@seminoles1

Gendry could legitimize himself as well.  It's not a matter of whether or not someone could legitimize themselves, it's a matter of whether or not that legitimization is noted and accepted by the people necessary to note and accept it.  The difference between the two is that Jon could legitimately legitimize himself because he is a true born heir to Rhaegar while Gendry is still a bastard, but if nobody knows that Jon is the true born heir of Rhaegar, nobody else would legitimize it.  Additionally, if anybody knew that Jon was the true born heir of Rhaegar, why would he have to legitimize himself when he's already, by birth, legitimate? 

Edited August 14, 2017 by HorizontoZenith

[Matts4313]

You guys spend way too much time talking about about bloodlines when the truth has been apparent the entire time: 

The person who forces their way onto the throne is the 'rightful' ruler in the eyes of everyone who matters.

[cddolphin]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

You guys spend way too much time talking about about bloodlines when the truth has been apparent the entire time: 

The person who forces their way onto the throne is the 'rightful' ruler in the eyes of everyone who matters.

This. Somone's "right" to the throne is only as useful as the number of important players who accept it. Rights by bloodline, conquest, marriage, etc are only as valid as the people supporting the claim. Westoros isn't exactly referring to their Constitution.

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

@seminoles1

Gendry could legitimize himself as well.  It's not a matter of whether or not someone could legitimize themselves, it's a matter of whether or not that legitimization is noted and accepted by the people necessary to note and accept it.  The difference between the two is that Jon could legitimately legitimize himself because he is a true born heir to Rhaegar while Gendry is still a bastard, but if nobody knows that Jon is the true born heir of Rhaegar, nobody else would legitimize it.  Additionally, if anybody knew that Jon was the true born heir of Rhaegar, why would he have to legitimize himself when he's already, by birth, legitimate? 

Well I meant like the way Ramsay was legitimized as a Bolton where people accepted it, not just for his own pleasure.

And obviously if/when Jon and everyone finds out about his true lineage then he won't have to legitimize himself.  It was just more of a hypothetical, in a world where Jon really is Ned Stark's bastard.  Would he, as King of the North, have the ability to legitimize himself as a Stark or would that be frowned upon?  So the answer is yes (and I'm guessing people wouldn't fight the King over the matter).

[Acgott]

Jon can go by Jon Stark if he chooses, it's still it's mother's house and when two great houses marry sometimes the child can take the stronger house.

Rhaeger must have have really hated Ellia Martel for Rhaeger to divorce her, marry someone new, and have that child all in Dorne. Ellis's home. 

[seminoles1]

18 minutes ago, Acgott said:

Jon can go by Jon Stark if he chooses, it's still it's mother's house and when two great houses marry sometimes the child can take the stronger house.

Rhaeger must have have really hated Ellia Martel for Rhaeger to divorce her, marry someone new, and have that child all in Dorne. Ellis's home. 

Has that happened before?

[Forge]

18 minutes ago, Acgott said:

Jon can go by Jon Stark if he chooses, it's still it's mother's house and when two great houses marry sometimes the child can take the stronger house.

Rhaeger must have have really hated Ellia Martel for Rhaeger to divorce her, marry someone new, and have that child all in Dorne. Ellis's home. 

I don't think that they will go this much in depth in the series, but it wasn't hate. Rhaegar was consumed with the prophecy and the ways by which to fulfill it. Lyanna had less to do with hating Elia and more to do with fulfilling that prophecy (though I won't say that he didnt love either woman, it's very possible that he did). Elia was frail and the unable to have any more children, but Rhaegar believed that he needed one more child.  

[Forge]

21 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Has that happened before?

I had thought it happened with the Darry's, but they would actually be "the Lannisters of Darry", so that is out. The other option I can think of is the Mormonts. Jeor was the head of the house, had one son (Jorah). When Jeor went to the Nights Watch, bear island passed to Jorah. However, upon his exile, there were no other male Mormonts left to inherit or keep the name going.  Maege was the leader of the house, yet all of her children use the name Mormont (such as Lyanna). If they are natural children, they would have had to have been legitimized with the Mormont name. More likely they are trueborn, but they use the name Mormont to continue it on. 

There is the case of Lady Hornwood's heir as well. The idea of her late husband's nephew, Beren Tallhart becoming heir and taking the name Hornwood (which we would assume would be from his mother, likely Halys Hornwood's sister) was presented during the books, so there is some precedent for it. 

[Acgott]

11 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Has that happened before?

There is no Ceresi Baratheon, Sansa Lannister, or Ellia Targaryan so it seems quite common 

[Forge]

1 minute ago, Acgott said:

There is no Ceresi Baratheon, Sansa Lannister, or Ellia Targaryan so it seems quite common 

Those aren't applicable - he's talking about the children of the marriage of two great houses, not the spouses. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella did use the last name Baratheon. Elia's children were Targaryens, not Martells. 

[Acgott]

3 minutes ago, Forge said:

Those aren't applicable - he's talking about the children of the marriage of two great houses, not the spouses. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella did use the last name Baratheon. Elia's children were Targaryens, not Martells. 

Doran Martell uses his mothers name, but that could be because of Dornish customs . Since Jon was born in Dorne it probably wouldn't work, but they can try and bend it like Beckham 

[MacReady]

I still like the theory of Tyrion being a bastard Targaryen.  For anybody that wants to read up on how it's a possibility, here's a good one explaining it in detail:

https://winteriscoming.net/2016/05/06/game-of-thrones-theorycrafting-is-tyrion-lannister-actually-a-targaryen/